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Old May 20, 2020, 07:10 PM   #1
burbank_jung
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Problem: 6.5 Swede w/ 160 Hornady RN

Has anyone reloaded 160gr Hornady RN bullets for a M96 6.5x55 Swede? My cartridges will not chamber. The cases have all been FL resized and measured at 2.165". The dimensions are the same or appear slightly less than unfired PRVI ammo I have. The PRVI cartridges chamber. I seated the 160gr Hornady bullets to the cannelure and it will not chamber. I found the COAL to be 2.60" by inserting a cleaning rod down the barrel to the bolt face and to the bullet tip when the bullet was forced into the lands. Even when I seated the bullet so the COAL was 2.50", it would not. Now the bullet looks like a nub and it falls into the case.I measured the diameter of the bullet to .264. The case neck the diameter is .30". I had enough for today. Tomorrow I'll use the same cases that were resized for the 160gr test loads but seat a spitzer just to see if it'll chamber. I found an unused test load from years ago using a 142smk. That' wouldn't chamber. Maybe I need to peak into the chambers on both M96 rifles.

Any suggestions?
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Old May 20, 2020, 07:53 PM   #2
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Are your PRVI cartidages RN?

You have to seat RN's further back with a shorter COL.
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Old May 20, 2020, 07:56 PM   #3
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Yes, I have loaded both bullets, but only the 142 MatchKing for my M96. COL for that one is 3.100. Chambers and shoots fine in mine. Very accurate.

I load the 160 Hornady RN at 2.994, but I'm shooting it from a rebarreled FN '98 Mauser. The barrel is one of those Brownell's bargains that I installed and set the headspace with a finish reamer and go/no go gauges. If anything, the chamber is a little tight. It groups the Hornady bullets right at an inch.

Your case length is at max, but that should be fine. Did you crimp the Hornady?
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Old May 20, 2020, 10:13 PM   #4
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Ammo Details

The PRVI is a Spire Point. I took a spent case and seated a 160gr RN in that case too and it would not chamber.

I shot test loads using 142SMKs last time with H4831 14-15 years ago. I'll make test loads again but plan to use R22 this time and maybe R19 to compare since R19 is more similar to 4831. I happened to have some old Sierra 160 SMK and 155 HPBT too and may try those

The case is seated so deep that maybe 1/2" is showing. Something is wrong.
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Old May 21, 2020, 01:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
The cases have all been FL resized and measured at 2.165".
This is interesting. I looked in my old Lyman book and it gives a max case length for the Swede as 2.160" Trim to length is 2.150"

Then I looked in a more recent Hornady book and it gives Swede max case length as 2.165"

That's 0.005" difference.

That MIGHT be part of your problem. Do sized cases chamber ok??

Quote:
I seated the 160gr Hornady bullets to the cannelure and it will not chamber.
Ok, clearly something is off. Why does it not chamber?? Case too long? or bullet hitting the rifling? both??

Quote:
I found the COAL to be 2.60" by inserting a cleaning rod down the barrel to the bolt face and to the bullet tip when the bullet was forced into the lands.
Your measurements still baffle me. Obviously if the bullet is jammed into the rifling, it is too long. I don't understand why you used a cleaning rod at all.

It is possible your Swede rifle has a short throat, but I've never found that to be the case on any of the Swedes I've owned.

I also think you are using COAL (COL) incorrectly. The term means CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH (loaded length base of case to bullet tip) Max for the Swede is 3.062" in my Lyman book.

If you are measuring to some point on the bullet ogive, we don't have a common point of reference. I don't know where your data point on the ogive is, or if it is repeatable. Since I don't measure the way you do, I can't be of much help in that regard.

My Hornady book lists a cannelured 160gr RN and gives a COL of 2.970" with that bullet.

What is the COL (case base to bullet tip) of your round when you seat that bullet to the cannelure??

My M96 has a 1917 date and I've used 160s in it, though I can't recall if they were Hornady or not, its been some time.

Are your rounds at or below the standard max loaded length (3.062")??
Are your Hornady 160s at their listed length of 2.970?

if not, why not? Don't discount the possibility your rifle is throated too short for the long RN bullets at max length. If that is the case, the answer is simple, load shorter!!
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Old May 21, 2020, 01:25 PM   #6
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Hornady 9th edition lists max COL at 3.150.
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Old May 21, 2020, 02:24 PM   #7
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44amp-do the sized cases chamber ok!!!-that'd the first thing that popped into my head. Burbank perhaps a more sizing is in order, but be careful, one can pretty easily break a swede extractor trying to slide the extractor over a brass in the chamber. Don't ask me how I know this.BestoLuck
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Old May 21, 2020, 03:42 PM   #8
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I always check the CIP dimensions for European rounds on the assumption American books may have inexact conversions of the metric dimension. Here is the CIP drawing. The exact conversion factor is 25.4 mm/in. So, rounded to the nearest tenth of a thousandth of an inch, we have:

Max COL = 3.1496" (3.15" will be close enough in any gun I've seen)
Max Case Length = 2.1654" (subtract 0.010" for trim-to length)

So the conversions are good for all practical purposes here.

A simple approach to getting a fit is just to drop a bullet into the throat and press against the base of it with a pencil while you run your cleaning rod in at the muzzle until it stops on the bullet nose. Mark the cleaning rod with a pencil where the muzzle is when you have the bullet stopping it in the throat. Then push the bullet out with the rod and close the bolt of the rifle and insert the cleaning rod to make contact with the bolt face. Mark it with a pencil again. Withdraw it. the distance between the two pencil marks should be your jammed COL, and if you take about 0.030" off of it, you should have a round that fits if it isn't hanging up on anything else on the way in.
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Old May 21, 2020, 04:01 PM   #9
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Do you have a 96 or a 96/38? The 96/38 has a shorter throat.
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Old May 21, 2020, 07:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Do you have a 96 or a 96/38? The 96/38 has a shorter throat.
Doesn't matter. Sweden was still running down stocks of the 160 gr RN they had when the 96/38 can into being. So much so that the AG42 rear sight adjustment is swappable for either the RN or Spitzer bullet ballistics by pulling a pin removing the drum, flipping the window and putting it back together.

I have (3) 96's & (1) AG42B. I also have loaded the Hornady 160 Gr. in PPU brass and they worked fine loaded to the cannelure.

Without more info my guess is something else is seriously wrong here.
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Old May 22, 2020, 12:17 AM   #11
burbank_jung
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Chambering Problem resolved

I found my problem. the case was too long for both of my M96 rifles.

While the maximum case length range I found was 2.155"-2.165", I measured my spent PRVI case after resizing and it was 2.150. I measured the body diameter of the resized case near the base and near the neck and it was smaller than a PRVI unspent cartridge. The length from the base to the shoulder was the same. I also used my cleaning rod to measure the length of my cleaning rod tip from the bolt face to the muzzle. Then I dropped the bullet in the chamber and pushed the bullet up against the lands with a dowel. With the bullet in place, I inserted the cleaning rod into the barrel until it touched the bullet. I again mark on the cleaning rod with tape. Old Timers reading this already know this but I'm mentioning it here because I think some newbies don't know this. Anyway, the distance between the tape is the length from the tip of he bullet to the base of the case ( or atleast close to it ). I have something to work on. I chambered the PRVI case to the length obtained above and the cartridge chambered. So, I've learned that chamber length can be shorter than the published data. Fortunately, I found an unopened and forgotten cartridge case measuring tool pack while digging for my trimmer.
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Old May 22, 2020, 09:26 PM   #12
burbank_jung
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Odd problem

The new loads with trimmed cases did not work. Case length was not the problem.

I took my chamber gauge and determined that the maximum case length for the chambers were 2.165" I measure the resized cases again and compared them to the PRVI cases again. I found and pulled S&B cases, resized and seated my test loads using this brass instead. It chambered easily. I finally discovered that the problem was that the case neck was too thick on the Swedish military brass I had. To use this military brass, I'll have to neck turn them.
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Old May 22, 2020, 10:16 PM   #13
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Really neck turning for a M96. So new brass chambers okay but your resized brass doesn't, that tells me that your spent brass probably isn't resized enough. Turn down that resizing die some, try another eight or quarter turn. lots of confusion, new prvi, spent prvi, resized prvi, resized(new?)S+B, and some (spent?) military brass which might have necks to thick for a M96's generous chamber.(I don't think so)BestoLuck
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Old May 22, 2020, 10:36 PM   #14
lonniemike
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AMP said it first, the question was "do sized cases chambers OK?" make sure the spent empty resized brass chambers, then work on projectiles n powder
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Old May 23, 2020, 12:12 AM   #15
burbank_jung
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Lessons learned

This brass was acquired from Sweden and has a crown stamped on the base of the head with what appears to be the date and production number. it's heavier than the other production cases. I FL resized it and the dimensions were leas than the unfired PRVI brass. It's just that after I seated the bullet, the neck expanded to an outside diameter to .300" where the 6.5x55 dimension is something like .297". A fired PRVI neck outside diameter was .300".
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Old May 24, 2020, 12:40 PM   #16
lonniemike
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so new ammo or virgin brass chambers, but not your sized cases? Keep adjusting the die further.
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Old May 24, 2020, 02:09 PM   #17
burbank_jung
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Resizing die adjustment

My resizing die is already down to the shell holder. The sizing die does resize the neck down to the correct size. Only after I seat the bullet, the bullet acts like a madrel and expands the case neck diameter out. It's the brass.
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Old Yesterday, 11:07 AM   #18
lonniemike
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I would bet that you see no gap with shell holder against the die without any brass in there. I'll also bet that when you resize a case(brass in the shellholder) that you will now see a gap between the die and shellholder due to the springiness of your press's linkage. I urge you to screw in the die more. Your resized brass shoulders probably need to set back just a little bit more. Will you resize and chamber just the brass case, with no primer, no bullet, no powder? New ammo/brass does chamber and so far your resized brass will not chamber. Over, out, and good luck
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Old Yesterday, 11:23 AM   #19
Don Fischer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonniemike View Post
I would bet that you see no gap with shell holder against the die without any brass in there. I'll also bet that when you resize a case(brass in the shellholder) that you will now see a gap between the die and shellholder due to the springiness of your press's linkage. I urge you to screw in the die more. Your resized brass shoulders probably need to set back just a little bit more. Will you resize and chamber just the brass case, with no primer, no bullet, no powder? New ammo/brass does chamber and so far your resized brass will not chamber. Over, out, and good luck
Bet you can see light between the shell holder and die with some of mine. I partial size everything. With a rifle like that, I'm not sure what I'd do. Maybe he has a very tight chamber and need's to over cam the die in the press. Could be his necks are to thick. Seem's an easy way to tell is measure one that fit's and then one that doesn't. I have never fired a custom chamber which are supposed to be tight but I have never seen case's with necks like that. If it is a 96 Mauser I somehow doubt it has that tight a chamber, it's a battle field rifle!

Were it me, after thinking about this. I'd size the case's till they chambered with no problem. Try some loaded factory rounds. If they work, measure the neck with the bullet in the case and then a reload with a bullet in that doesn't work.

One last though. I seem to remember years ago there were two different size 6.5 bullet's. Maybe it's possible that if there were he's got a hold of oversize bullet's somehow.
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Old Yesterday, 01:28 PM   #20
burbank_jung
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Case Comparison

I raised my shell holder and lowered my dies to touch it snug. I resized this case and a PRVI case. After resizing, the dimensions were the same using my outside calipers and smaller in diameter to the factory loaded PRVI round that also chambers. I made a dummy load with the PRVI case with the Hornady 160 RN bullets and it chambered. At best, a load using this Swedish brass had to be forced in to barely chamber but not quite. The others did not. That's a difference between .300 and .301. The PRVI cartridge neck diameter was .297. There's also rub marks on the neck of the Swedish military brass. I transferred my bullets and powder (and rechecked the charge), and then reloaded the components into S&B brass. No problem.
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Old Yesterday, 01:32 PM   #21
burbank_jung
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I've reshaped, cut down, and fireformed 30-06 military brass for my 7.7 Arisaka. The necks are thicker than commercial brass but I leave those alone because the loaded rounds will chamber.
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Old Yesterday, 07:48 PM   #22
lonniemike
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You're trying me, "I raised my shellholder and lower my dies to touch it snug."
You've done that over and over. Yet, your cases will not chamber with your method. Try adding the following to your method. "Now lower the shellholder and then turn the die in an additional 1/8,1/4, or more turns past snug." Try that for something different. It'll chamber if sized right.














keep more if necessary. What kind of press are you using?
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