44-40 reloading question

Peter R · May 11, 2020, 11:39 AM

So I slugged a barrel on a Rossi 44-40 , it slugged out at .427. I have been doing a fair amount of reading regarding reloading this cartridge, I see talk of people owning several Firearms chambered in 44-40 that slug out at two different diameters, say .427 and .429 for example and rather that having two separate diameter projectiles they are using say a .428 Diameter in both.
My question would be would it be safe to use a .428 or .429 cast bullet in a barrel that slugged out at the .427 would this increase the chances of leading up the barrel?
Secondly would the accuracy suffer with a .428 diameter projectile being fired from barrel that slugged out at .429.
Thanks

Jim Watson · May 11, 2020, 11:54 AM

I shot .428s in my .428" Redman relined Winchester when I could find them. Otherwise .427". I tried .429" but they would not chamber in the Winchester or Colt except in thin Winchester brass.
Accuracy? I don't know, they were shot only at CAS with large close targets.

Peter R · May 11, 2020, 12:13 PM

I did not even consider whether or not it would chamber. I’ll stick with the .427
Thanks

Hawg · May 11, 2020, 01:15 PM

My Rossi 92 slugged at .429 as well as two Uberti Colt's.

mehavey · May 11, 2020, 02:41 PM

1. Shoot the largest diameter that will chamber when combined with the brass thickness.
2. Cast/shoot a SOFT alloy (30:1/BHN~8)

Peter R · May 11, 2020, 02:45 PM

I am surprised to hear some of the differences in bore sizes in the Rossi’s
I slugged my barrel twice. It’s definitely .427
This is an older pre-safety Rossi
I checked with Winchester regarding the factory ammo I had been shooting. The Jacketed black box factory loads I had are .427
I’m having a hard time finding anyone with cast 200 gr .427 in stock.

mehavey · May 11, 2020, 03:19 PM

http://cowboybullets.com/

Hawg · May 11, 2020, 05:00 PM

Quote:

I slugged my barrel twice. It’s definitely .427
This is an older pre-safety Rossi

So was mine.

44 Dave · May 11, 2020, 05:09 PM

A .429 in lead is no problem,but stick to .427 in jacketed (that is what "factory" jacketed) will be.
I did slightly hone the chambers on my Cattlemen because I had to push .429s in, now they drop right in.

Dave T · May 12, 2020, 12:16 PM

I have always been told, and my experience bares it out, that cast bullets should be at least .001" over groove diameter. In the .427" Rossi the recommendation would be .428" and as someone said, if they will chamber when loaded even .429" bullets would be fine.

Over sized cast bullets don't lead, under sized cast bullets lead barrels.

Dave

mehavey · May 12, 2020, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_T

Over-sized cast bullets don't lead, under sized cast bullets lead barrels.

...and under-sized/over-hard bullet REALLY lead barrels.

Hawg · May 12, 2020, 06:09 PM

Quote:

and under-sized/over-hard bullet REALLY lead barrels

Soft bullets driven too fast will lead a barrel.

44caliberkid · May 12, 2020, 06:27 PM

I have a Rossi made 92 in 44-40, but all the ammo I shoot in it are black powder loads made for my Uberti '66 and '73. Uberti may use .429 - .430 barrels, but their chamber specs are original dimensions. I can't size bullets any larger than .428 or they won't chamber. But they are plenty accurate. I got second place in a pistol caliber rifle long range match once.
If you have a bunch of 429 - 430 bullets you can always push them through a Lee 428 sizing die, only about $15.

Driftwood Johnson · May 12, 2020, 10:12 PM

Howdy

I am one of those guys who shoots one diameter bullet in different groove diameter rifles. At last count I have five rifles chambered for 44-40. An antique Marlin Model 1894, two antique Winchester Models 1892, an Uberti replica Winchester Model 1873 and an Uberti replica 1860 Henry.

I have slugged them all, groove diameters for these five rifles are either .427 or .429. Interestingly enough, one antique Winchester and the Henry have .429 barrels, the other antique Winchester, the Antique Marlin, and the Uberti 1873 all have .427 diameter barrels. Go figure.

When I stared out with the antique Winchester with the .427 barrel I was shooting .427 diameter bullets in it. I tried .427, .428, and .429. in that rifle. The same with the Uberti 1873. It turns out the chamber of the Uberti 1873 was tight enough that .429 bullets expanded the case mouth just enough to make the loaded rounds difficult to chamber. But I had no problem shooting hard cast lead .427, .428, or .429 bullets through those rifles, accuracy was fine. Yes, I have always read that cast bullet diameter should be .001 over groove diameter, but all three diameters shot fine in the .427 barrels and accuracy was fine. Again, go figure.

My CAS Main Match rifle for the last ten years has been the 1860 Henry with its .429 groove diameter. Not wanting to load 2 different diameters for different rifles, I settled on loading all my 44-40 ammo with .428 diameter bullets. Yes, .001 undersize for the Henry groove diameter. Accuracy is fine, no problem. Of course I shoot nothing but Black Powder in that rifle, and the very soft lead bullets I use may be bumping up in diameter in the barrel. I really don't know.

Whatever the case, I have been doing fine with .428 bullets in the .429 groove diameter of the Henry for about 10 years now.

Bottom line, with cast bullets, it really does not matter a hill of beans if the bullets are slightly undersize or slightly oversize. Maybe if I was trying to shoot hairs off a flea at 50 yards it would matter, but I don't require that kind of accuracy.

Dave T · May 12, 2020, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Bottom line, with cast bullets, it really does not matter a hill of beans if the bullets are slightly undersize or slightly oversize.

That's way too broad a statement to let stand. As someone earlier said, undersized hard cast bullets will lead badly. The author of the statement above is getting away with undersized bullets because, by his own admission he is using "very soft lead bullets". They will indeed up-set and fill the grooves in the barrel.

Dave

mehavey · May 13, 2020, 11:27 AM

At anything other than approaching High/Mag pressure/velocities, SOFT is your friend.
(Did I mention keep it soft ?)

Savvy_Jack · May 16, 2020, 06:40 PM

The Rossi is a strong action rifle so shooting over-sized lead bullets should be okay with standard loads. The question, as has been addressed, is if the over-sizes bullets will chamber. Winchester brass is the thinnest, then Starline, the Remington. If you have a hard time chambering, try Winchester. If that doesn't work, you are forced to use smaller diameter bullets.

Over-sized bullets can increase chamber pressures BUT like I said, the Rossi 92 can withstand the High Velocity, High Pressure loads....so some over-sized bullets with standard loads will be fine.

Pressure can increase when using lager diameter bullets. Using bullets that touch the lands when chambered will also increase pressure. An over-crimped bullet can increase pressure too....add it all up and ya got a higher pressure load then ya think.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

Savvy_Jack · May 16, 2020, 07:14 PM

Quote:

1. Shoot the largest diameter that will chamber when combined with the brass thickness.
2. Cast/shoot a SOFT alloy (30:1/BHN~8)

mehavey, that is a great group @ 100 yards!!!

Here is a target with 30 consecutive shots. I shot 4 - 10shot groups. 1st group was at a different target, 2nd-4th group was at the below target. The 1st group is shown as black dots. After the first group, I adjusted the scope for POA and shot the next groups on the second target. Note the grouping of each ten shot group.

The link to the target discussion in here: https://www.marlinowners.com/forum/t...43-214a-2.html

Dave T · May 17, 2020, 11:40 AM

Never mind.

Dave

May 11, 2020, 11:39 AM	#1
Peter R Member Join Date: April 14, 2020 Posts: 18	44-40 reloading question So I slugged a barrel on a Rossi 44-40 , it slugged out at .427. I have been doing a fair amount of reading regarding reloading this cartridge, I see talk of people owning several Firearms chambered in 44-40 that slug out at two different diameters, say .427 and .429 for example and rather that having two separate diameter projectiles they are using say a .428 Diameter in both. My question would be would it be safe to use a .428 or .429 cast bullet in a barrel that slugged out at the .427 would this increase the chances of leading up the barrel? Secondly would the accuracy suffer with a .428 diameter projectile being fired from barrel that slugged out at .429. Thanks

May 12, 2020, 12:16 PM	#10
Dave T Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Location: Mesa, Arizona Posts: 1,456	I have always been told, and my experience bares it out, that cast bullets should be at least .001" over groove diameter. In the .427" Rossi the recommendation would be .428" and as someone said, if they will chamber when loaded even .429" bullets would be fine. Over sized cast bullets don't lead, under sized cast bullets lead barrels. Dave __________________ RSVN '69-'71 PCSD Ret

May 16, 2020, 06:40 PM	#17
Savvy_Jack Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2018 Posts: 220	The Rossi is a strong action rifle so shooting over-sized lead bullets should be okay with standard loads. The question, as has been addressed, is if the over-sizes bullets will chamber. Winchester brass is the thinnest, then Starline, the Remington. If you have a hard time chambering, try Winchester. If that doesn't work, you are forced to use smaller diameter bullets. Over-sized bullets can increase chamber pressures BUT like I said, the Rossi 92 can withstand the High Velocity, High Pressure loads....so some over-sized bullets with standard loads will be fine. Pressure can increase when using lager diameter bullets. Using bullets that touch the lands when chambered will also increase pressure. An over-crimped bullet can increase pressure too....add it all up and ya got a higher pressure load then ya think. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading __________________ https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester

May 17, 2020, 11:40 AM	#19
Dave T Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Location: Mesa, Arizona Posts: 1,456	Never mind. Dave __________________ RSVN '69-'71 PCSD Ret

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May 11, 2020, 11:54 AM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,534	I shot .428s in my .428" Redman relined Winchester when I could find them. Otherwise .427". I tried .429" but they would not chamber in the Winchester or Colt except in thin Winchester brass. Accuracy? I don't know, they were shot only at CAS with large close targets.

May 11, 2020, 12:13 PM	#3
Peter R Member Join Date: April 14, 2020 Posts: 18	I did not even consider whether or not it would chamber. I’ll stick with the .427 Thanks

May 11, 2020, 01:15 PM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	My Rossi 92 slugged at .429 as well as two Uberti Colt's.

May 11, 2020, 02:41 PM	#5
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,883	1. Shoot the largest diameter that will chamber when combined with the brass thickness. 2. Cast/shoot a SOFT alloy (30:1/BHN~8)

May 11, 2020, 02:45 PM	#6
Peter R Member Join Date: April 14, 2020 Posts: 18	I am surprised to hear some of the differences in bore sizes in the Rossi’s I slugged my barrel twice. It’s definitely .427 This is an older pre-safety Rossi I checked with Winchester regarding the factory ammo I had been shooting. The Jacketed black box factory loads I had are .427 I’m having a hard time finding anyone with cast 200 gr .427 in stock.

May 11, 2020, 03:19 PM	#7
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,883	http://cowboybullets.com/

May 11, 2020, 05:09 PM	#9
44 Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2013 Posts: 584	A .429 in lead is no problem,but stick to .427 in jacketed (that is what "factory" jacketed) will be. I did slightly hone the chambers on my Cattlemen because I had to push .429s in, now they drop right in.

May 12, 2020, 06:27 PM	#13
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,096	I have a Rossi made 92 in 44-40, but all the ammo I shoot in it are black powder loads made for my Uberti '66 and '73. Uberti may use .429 - .430 barrels, but their chamber specs are original dimensions. I can't size bullets any larger than .428 or they won't chamber. But they are plenty accurate. I got second place in a pistol caliber rifle long range match once. If you have a bunch of 429 - 430 bullets you can always push them through a Lee 428 sizing die, only about $15.

May 12, 2020, 10:12 PM	#14
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,033	Howdy I am one of those guys who shoots one diameter bullet in different groove diameter rifles. At last count I have five rifles chambered for 44-40. An antique Marlin Model 1894, two antique Winchester Models 1892, an Uberti replica Winchester Model 1873 and an Uberti replica 1860 Henry. I have slugged them all, groove diameters for these five rifles are either .427 or .429. Interestingly enough, one antique Winchester and the Henry have .429 barrels, the other antique Winchester, the Antique Marlin, and the Uberti 1873 all have .427 diameter barrels. Go figure. When I stared out with the antique Winchester with the .427 barrel I was shooting .427 diameter bullets in it. I tried .427, .428, and .429. in that rifle. The same with the Uberti 1873. It turns out the chamber of the Uberti 1873 was tight enough that .429 bullets expanded the case mouth just enough to make the loaded rounds difficult to chamber. But I had no problem shooting hard cast lead .427, .428, or .429 bullets through those rifles, accuracy was fine. Yes, I have always read that cast bullet diameter should be .001 over groove diameter, but all three diameters shot fine in the .427 barrels and accuracy was fine. Again, go figure. My CAS Main Match rifle for the last ten years has been the 1860 Henry with its .429 groove diameter. Not wanting to load 2 different diameters for different rifles, I settled on loading all my 44-40 ammo with .428 diameter bullets. Yes, .001 undersize for the Henry groove diameter. Accuracy is fine, no problem. Of course I shoot nothing but Black Powder in that rifle, and the very soft lead bullets I use may be bumping up in diameter in the barrel. I really don't know. Whatever the case, I have been doing fine with .428 bullets in the .429 groove diameter of the Henry for about 10 years now. Bottom line, with cast bullets, it really does not matter a hill of beans if the bullets are slightly undersize or slightly oversize. Maybe if I was trying to shoot hairs off a flea at 50 yards it would matter, but I don't require that kind of accuracy.

May 13, 2020, 11:27 AM	#16
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,883	At anything other than approaching High/Mag pressure/velocities, SOFT is your friend. (Did I mention keep it soft ?)