thoughts for making 223 brass into 380 (please read for more info)

[Stiggy21]

ive recently got into reloading and came across a story about wax bullets for use in practicing the only thing is you must modify cases to make it work good by drilling out the primer and using a 209 primer my thoughts were use the steel cases but to my surprise i had no 380 after doing some researching i found that you can use 223 to make 380 but every one says the case walls are to thick and you cant put enough powder so my idea made more since to me since the wax bullets dont use powder and i wouldn't feel bad modifying a steel case also lets me know which cases are practice and which are live what do you guys think time is not a factor as this is a hobby and i enjoy it i think this could be a very effect training aid and also much cheaper on the wallet any advice is appreciated im hoping some ones done the 223 to 380 on brass and can give some pointer thanks in advance for the help

ps: i would not use my expensive dies for this i would use some very cheap ones and also a cheap case timer so as not to ruin my expensive equipment

[tlm225]

While I have no idea if a cut down .223 case would work, I see no need for the 209 primer. Years ago I had some .38 special plastic cases that used standard primers and rubber bullets for "practice". I quickly learned that a standard primer would put one through a hollow core door after passing though a cardboard box.

[Stiggy21]

the main reason for the 209 primer is the steel case has a berdan primer there often to big for boxer primers so drilling a little bigger for 209 would be easier than trying to make a bushing i have yet to get the steel deprimed but i suppose if a large rifle primer would fit in there that would also work just not real interested in making copper bushings

[Jim Watson]

This is one of those far out projects that I doubt you will find references on.

Suggest you try it and you tell us how well it works.

[Marco Califo]

steel case has a berdan primer there often to big for boxer primers so drilling a little bigger for 209

This sounds like an attempt to win a Darwin award (AKA a very bad idea).

1. Steel cases are not reloadable.
2. Berdan primed cases are not "convertible" by drilling.
3. The modified case would have compromised engineering integrity and would be unsafe.
4. The steel case wall would be too thick to be usable for pistol.
5. 209 primers are not engineered to ignite pistol powders or propel wax bullets.
6. The unlucky firearm to be used was not intended to strike 209 primers.

If you had the required knowledge, experience, and tools to do this, you would know better than to imagine this up. My advice is: use your free time reading several reloading manuals and picking up and sorting brass that is actually made from brass. BTW Reloading manuals use Capitals, punctuation, and complete sentences since they make more (since/cents/sense) that way.

[Marco Califo]

7. Wax bullets and 209 primer will not cycle a 380
8. The wax bullet would deform when chambered.
9. Berdan primer system case structure is not conducive to drilling as the anvil is part of the case and looks like a post in the primer pocket.
10. Steel cases can be identified with a magnet, and then placed in a designated container (trash can), pending bio-degradation to iron oxide.

[turtlehead]

That may have been the longest run-on sentence I have ever read. But it didn't end with a period so I'm not sure what to think.

And don't treat guns like toys.

[T. O'Heir]

Aside from it being a colossal waste of time, do you have a lathe? .380 ACP's rim is 4 thou smaller than the .223's.
And, like Marco says, Berdan primed, steel cases are not reloadable or convertible to boxer.
Anyway, wax bullets are not used for anything but 'Quick Draw" competitions. And 100 Winchester brass .380 cases runs $21.99 at Midway. No point mucking around with any kind of .223 case.

[Clark]

I bought some 380 brass made from 223 brass.
This primed brass is 35% heavier than factory 380 brass primed.

[mikld]

While I respect Marco and his experience I cannot agree with his post(s).
Steel cases are reloadable. BTDT, but most believe they aren't worth the effort; very short case life, as in one or two reloadings..

Google "converting Berdan primed cases to Boxer primed cases" and there will be several hits. I've seen youtube videos of the conversion, IIRC. It can be done, but labor intensive.

The case will not be "compromised" the head is still strong enough, enough metal present, for primer only use, no powder.

I don't have a sectioned case to determine what the .223 case walls are at .380 ACP length, so mebbe. But with wax "cookie cutter" bullets it is of no concern.

209 primers are used quite a bit for pistol powders (all the "dot" powders, and many of the fast pistol powders are interchangeable between shotgun and pistol. Think Unique).

Igniting a 209 primer in a pistol shouldn't be a problem and would need to be tried (but I see no problems unless 209s are twice or three times as "hard" as rifle primers, which I've used successfully in my pistols.).

Agree, wax gallery loads will probably not cycle a semi-auto. But indoor, basement fun shooting single loading isn't a problem.

Wax bullets are similar to wadcutters and seated flush. Most of the wax bullet shooting I've witnessed, the case is pushed into a slab of wax, 1/4" or so, like a "cookie cutter". But since the gallery rounds won't cycle the gun, it's a moot point.

Drilling a berdan primed case is easily done two ways; one, drill out from the inside, of course it would be difficult holding the case in one hand and a hand drill in the other, but good machine shop practices and it'd be easy (a drill vise and drill press). Another way is to break out the anvil and using a center drill to make drilling from the head possible. (life long machinist mechanic, been working with metal fabrication for mebbe 40 years).

Some will disagree with your "outside the box thinking", but I encourage you to continue. Without "forward thinking" would we ever think of using beer cans to make gas checks or painting lead bullets? Would anyone ever have thought of converting used 22 rimfire cases to jacketed bullets? Think of how many things reloaders use daily now, that at some time a reloader looked at something and thought "I wonder if...".

But Marco is right, it just isn't worth all the trouble when .380 brass is easy to find...

[Marco Califo]

mikld
You missed my whole point. We are not playing with Lego's. OP's knowledge and skill level need to evolve before entertaining these thoughts. At least not until they have a lot more experience. At that time, they may realize this idea was a brain fart. This "project" does not make any sense, and could be potentially dangerous. While I will not argue with your opinions, I believe it is "other than responsible" to encourage ignorant experimentation. Does SAAMI endorse home re-engineering of primer pockets?

[mikld]

Nope, and we aren't playing with nitro glycerin either. Most, if not all the items listed have been done, by me and other reloaders, none totally unique. While I appreciate, and stress, safety when reloading, none of the ideas the OP queried are dangerous. The case "modifications" are simple metal working and drilling the head for a 209 primer does not weaken the case head appreciably. Now if he wanted to modify a case for 209 primers and dump 10 grains of Unique in the case and stuffing a 100 grain bullet on top, I'd warn him, of course, that he was treading on thin ice, and to expect disastrous results.

While some think these case modifications are silly at best and dangerous at worst, they have been done safely. I agree though, that more experience is definitely a good thing before experimenting, but as I mentioned before, this is not virgin territory...

[Unclenick]

There are steel boxer primed cases that have been reloaded, and a couple have gone through a friend's Dillon 1050 by accident when we were loading on it. I recommend strongly against it, though. We had a fellow on another forum who didn't realize steel, being less malleable than brass, would fatigue to the point of incipient failure from expanding and resizing in just a few cycles. The result was pinhole gas leaks in the cases just ahead of the head web that gas cut small grooved pits all over the inside of his chamber.

[Sevens]

I think some are going way too far hitting the panic switch for primer-only wax bullet loads. Dangerous? About as dangerous as hammering nails.

If you want to trace down the genuine danger which only even MIGHT be present here (as we don't know specifically how the OP will go forward) it's that someone making primer-only wax bullet loads MIGHT end up shooting these things in some indoor home range and he may be unaware that discharging a bunch of primers indoor is NOT a great idea for the health of anyone who lives there.

SAAMI? No, I don't think SAAMI has a team of professionals dedicated to researching primer-only wax bullet loads.

[Stiggy21]

Ok to start off i apologize for the run on sentence did not realize i was being graded on my writing skills.

Secondly to Marco i believe i did the appropriate amount of research since i knew that berdan primers could be removed and modified it was a bit tacky to assume i had no knowledge. As others have said all the things I've mentioned have been done. People have been reloading steel cases they have been modifying them to use boxer primers and the cowboy action shooters use modified cases with 209 primers and wax bullets in completions.

Thanks to all those who had information on the subject again i will not be loading powder into theses shells only primer and wax.

Also had absolutely no plans of shooting these indoors but thanks for the advice sharing is caring. Thanks to all those replies i know this is a weird one but it sounds like a perfectly fun waste of time. I will Post my progress as i delve into this experiment.

[g.willikers]

every one says the case walls are to thick

.308 cases can be made into .45acp, too, but the same problem exists.
Mighty hard to resize.
Not really worth the effort and I do mean effort, unless there's no other way to get .380s.
Like after the fall and collapse of civilization.

[turtlehead]

I thought you were a kid.

[spacecoast]

Not really worth the effort and I do mean effort, unless there's no other way to get .380s.

Makes me glad I have a couple gallons of them.

[Stiggy21]

I understand that 380 brass is available but I'd rather not modify a case that can be reloaded with powder and bullets. I don't mind modifying steel case as I wouldn't reload it anyway.

[briandg]

Stiggy, if you really, seriously, want to fart around with this project, go ahead and do the work. You might enjoy it. You won't be hurt unless you do it in the machining phase. A primed case is not going to injure the pistol or yourself in anything but the wildest freak accident. I don't think that a wad of primer fired wax dumped out of a case into a chamber then a rifled barrel will fly accurately, no matter how you do it, and the thing will probably "lead" so badly that you won't get a fraction of a box of ammo fired without having to brush the bore clean. What ever wax you use, maybe paraffin softened with a toilet ring blended in, will be sticky and hard to use. You won't easily be able to punch out plain paraffin unless it is softened to the exact temperature. I don't believe for a second that a little 380 with a light weight firing pin and incredibly weak trigger spring will set off a 209 every time. No, this will not cycle the gun.

Mik, please explain how this qualifies as "forward thinking." This was used half a century ago, and discarded as a waste of time, nothing but a novelty. It was never, to my knowledge, used in a semiauto. There was never a 209 cut in, primer pockets were just reamed out with a precise drill bit that left only enough of the case web to hold the standard small or large rifle/pistol primer.even a fraction of an inch less than proper fit will allow most of the gas to slip past the primer and into the mag well, rather than be used to propel the wax.

If you want a handful of .380 brass, a few hundred or so, I'll ship them to you for the price of mailing a large padded envelope.

[briandg]

Mik, I consider can or can't do things on two or three points.

First, every steel case I have seen was berdan primed, because every maker of steel cases is fully aware that they are not appropriate for reloading. Berdan primers were at least ostensibly used in military brass to prevent the cases from being used again. Tearing out a berdan primer anvil to use the case again must be one of the most futile ideas that I have ever heard of. berdan primed steel brass is also, to my understanding, not cut to the same size as a boxer primer for that very same reason.

Second, you yourself admit that they shouldn't be used more than a few times, what is the point of spending all of the time fashioning steel cases to use, just to throw them out after a few loads?

Steel isn't meant to be reused. Steel is not at all flexible enough to use multiple times. that steel ammo is cheap drawn steel, not the type that will hold up under pressure or working. a person who reloads steel may manage to go through a thousand rounds before a catastrophic accident occurs, but mark my word, it will happen, especially with a rifle load. I guess that a pistol load may be safer, but what happens when the case separates at the chamber? I know. it's a mess.

I'm not the best reloader here, but I am probably on of the most conservative. I wouldn't touch that idea, reloading steel, with a ten mile long pole.

I guess that my point is, that just because you can make the physical round, you can't fire it safely with absolute confidence. Yes, you can, on the one hand, but no, you can't do it with a whole lot of confidence.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by briandg

Steel is not at all flexible enough to use multiple times.

Steel is plenty flexible enough to be used multiple times in a cartridge case so long as you keep the pressure low enough. For the Op's purpose of shooting primer-propelled wax bullets, he will never have to resize, bell, or crimp the case. The wax bullets will wear his barrel out before he wears out one of his modified steel cases.

[TMD]

Years ago I had some .38 special plastic cases that used standard primers and rubber bullets for "practice". I quickly learned that a standard primer would put one through a hollow core door after passing though a cardboard box.

Tried the same thing a few years ago with a .45LC and wax bullets made from hot glue gun sticks. Right through the cardboard box and one heck of a dent in the garage door.

[briandg]

if you keep the pressure low enough? Why would you say it's safe and then qualify it by saying that you can't reload it as you would brass?I've seen the damage that just stepping on these things can do. Nick showed a perfect example of what can happen when these are handled too much. The steel is not machine grade, it's probably recycled, and formulated to work through enough workings to form the cases. They are not designed to be reloaded, and choosing to so so for standard loads is crazy. The OP hasn't said anything about reloading them in a normal manner, and sure, if he wants to use them to fire wax bullets, there are plenty of other objections, but I don't think that anyone at any time said that shooting wax bullets out of steel would be dangerous, just reloading them for standard use.

All you could find in that post that you could disagree with was your belief that steel is flexible enough to reload a number of times? Tell me, have you ever done it, or is this just second , third, or even fourth hand information?

[g.willikers]

For home practice, just get a CO2 powered blowback airsoft replica.
More recoil (about like a .22), better accuracy and less noise, without contaminating the air with fired primers.