FN Model 1903 (Browning) 9X20

[RickB]

38 ACP, and 38 Super will fit in a 38 Special, and a .357.
I saw it while helping out in a LGS in the late 80s.
A gentleman came in saying he had purchased ammo at a local non-gunshop, and it just wasn't right in his gun. He brought in a box of Federal 38 Super FMJ, that had 5 fired cases in it.
We managed to get him to go back to his truck and get his pistol.
I can still remember the revolver very clearly, it was a Model 36 S&W .38 Special, with pretty Stag grips. We sold him a box of 38 Special and he left happy.
The smith wanted to check his revolver, but he declined to leave it.
With the owners permission, we loaded 2rds of Super, into a S&W model 66 in .357, a non pinned gun, and he fired it into his test barrel.
It worked but I really wouldn't suggest it, it's really high pressure for a 38Special.

I asked for .38 Super at the gun counter of a sporting goods store, and the guy places a box of .38 Special on the counter.
I protested that I'd asked for .38 SUPER, and he replied, "This fits all .38s . . . that's why it's special".

[Mike Irwin]

"I have no desire to get into an argument, Mike.
Suffice to say that early in the 1900s, pocket revolvers in these calibers were pretty popular in Europe. My 1911 ALFA catalog shows quite a few."

I'm not looking for an argument either, Bill.

I'm asking you to provide context to your claim that "many" revolvers were chambered for .25 and .32 ACP.

Since you have a period catalog, provide a list of guns so chambered.

As I said, I know of 4. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong.

I can't find any evidence of revolvers chambered for .25 and .32 surviving past the upheaval of World War I.

That leads me to believe those revolvers so chambered before World War I had sales that were so lackluster that they were simply a very brief, and very unsuccessful, evolutionary branch of the revolver tree.

[Mike Irwin]

"Additionally, I can think of but a single handgun chambered for Browning's other semi-rimmed cartridge, the .38 ACP --
May we count the Spanish pistols marked "9mm/.38", meaning 9mm Largo and .38 Auto?
I think that designation predates the .38 Super, although I am sure a lot of the guns get shot with .38 Super ammo, that being what is available now. "


Sorry, that was an extremely poor choice of wording on my part.

It should have read:

"Additionally, I can thing of but a single REVOLVER chambered for Browning's other semi-rimmed cartridge, the .38 ACP"

Yes, there were some European semi-autos chambered for .38 Auto (not many, though, as similar European rounds predominated).

But, if you ever come across an older revolver (primarily Spanish or Belgian) marked .38 Largo or even 9mm Largo R, NEVER try to put 9mm Largo, .38 ACP, or other modern ammunition in it.

Chances are very good it's actually chambered for the .38 Largo revolver round, a long obsolete low-pressure black powder cartridge.

A .38 ACP or 9mm Largo dropped into such a revolver would likely cause some very unpleasant things.

Some of these revolvers have fairly recently come into the US and been sold on the surplus market.

[Mike Irwin]

"I guess you could be. For what I have seen, the .25 ACP Velo-dog type revolver was very popular outside the States 100 years ago. Having handled and shot many of them, I can see why. Far better than NAA minis IMHO. "

I was counting the Velo-dog class revolver in my list of 4.

I'd still bet on the .25 chambering being a fraction of the total manufactured.

[Jim Watson]

That 1911 Alfa catalogue reprint shows 11 revolvers in .25 ACP, 5 available in .25 or .32, 7 in .32 ACP.
But 13 in .22 Velo Dog and more than I care to count in .320 and .380 Revolver (European equivalent of .32 and .38 Colt). Plus several in 7.62 Nagant and 8m Lebel.

Zhuk has two pages of "pistol type pocket revolvers", his term for kind of a humpbacked hammerless design, most in .25 or .32 ACP, plus a number scattered out through alphabetical listings of other patterns of hideout gun.

So yes, .25 revolvers are a fraction of the then market, but not an insignificant fraction.

[Mike Irwin]

"That 1911 Alfa catalogue reprint shows 11 revolvers in .25 ACP, 5 available in .25 or .32, 7 in .32 ACP. "

Alfa was the manufacturer?

Or was it a vendor?

OK, it looks like a German equivalent to Hartley & Graham combined with Bannerman's.

[Jim Watson]

The catalogue reprint is a great reference. Descriptions are short because they are in four languages.

[Mike Irwin]

Well I will be dipped.

I'll admit that I'm rather surprised at the number of European revolvers that were chambered for the .25 and .32 ACP cartridge.

I just finished going through the ALFA catalog and it was, surprising to say the least.

The ones I knew about were there, but the others? I had no clue that some of them existed, and others I knew about but not in .25 or .32.

I still question just how popular they were and how well they sold, but that's something we'll probably never really be able to know, but I withdraw my earlier comments/questions and consider this to have been very informative.

[Bill DeShivs]

My guess is that after WW1 automatics became more popular than revolvers.

[Mike Irwin]

Thinking about this some more...

I wonder why the European manufacturers decided to make revolvers chambered in .25 and .32 ACP, but US manufacturers didn't...

[Bill DeShivs]

I don't know, but I always thought that a similar .32 acp revolver, made properly would have sold extremely well. It still might, if built to scale for .32 acp.
We have tried to get NAA to build one for years. Instead, they came up with a prototype in .32 H&R magnum that was horrible looking and, of course, big.
.32 acp is actually a hot cartridge for it's size.

[Jim Watson]

Custom, take a .32 Hand Ejector and rechamber a .22 Kit Gun cylinder for .32 ACP.
Extractor would have to be just right for the semi-rim.

[micromontenegro]

I think I know where Bill is going, and a I or J frame won't cut it. We want a quality revolver scaled to .32 ACP size, even in cylinder lengh. I would love to have a couple.

And no, barrel gap flash won't be an issue with such a short cylinder. If it isn't in .22 short NAAs... you get my drift.

[PolarFBear]

With all this "talk" of a .32 revolver we have gone way beyond the BROWNING LONG. I invite you all to give one of the early JBs a try. In .32 they are delightful to carry and shoot. They are thin, just heavy enough to absorb the minimal recoil and RELIABLE. We have come 120 years since inception. Seen many new handgun offerings only to circle back to what was conceived in 1903, or there abouts. Other than the FN Browning Long are there any other Browning Long shooters?

[Jim Watson]

You mean other guns for 9mm BL?
I recall the leFrancais Type Armee and Webley & Scott Model of 1909.

[Mike Irwin]

I've been fortunate enough to shoot quite a few of the early Browning designs, including the 1903.

As I said earlier, I really don't like the grips on many of his earlier guns.

They were either too thin (Colt 1903) or they had weird geometry (think the Model 1900 "Parallel Rule" model).

The first Browning-design that really worked for me, grip wise, was the 1911 in .45.

[PzGren]

I had trimmed a few .38 S&W Special cases to work in a Husquarna 1907. It worked indeed.