colt 1911 series 80 firing pin safety reliabillity? - Page 5

James K · February 27, 2015, 10:28 AM

In spite of Slamfire's "interest" as soon as that word is used, the Series 80 firing pin block was not installed to prevent slamfires (which, as the term is generally understood) have never been a problem with the 1911. The issue was that a pistol dropped ON THE MUZZLE from a 10 foot height onto a solid surface fired due to the firing pin moving forward from inertia. It did not happen when the gun went into battery while firing normally.

IIRC, the pistol in question had a full length guide rod, which did not allow the energy to be absorbed by the recoil spring, as would have been the case with a "GI" recoil spring guide.

As to a gun with a loaded chamber and a lowered hammer falling on the hammer, the inertia type firing pin prevents that; the firing pin block is unnecessary.

Jim

Blue Duck · February 28, 2015, 02:31 AM

My question is who in the heck cares if the gun can go off if it's dropped barrel down. Let's say it does fire; where is the bullet going to go? It's going to hit the floor, at that point I suppose the bullet could bounce back up and hit someone, but it seems like the odds of all of that happening is greater then winning a small lottery.

I suspect all of this dropped gun crap got started when someone somewhere inadvertently pulled the trigger and shot something or someone and blamed it on a dropped gun that went off. OH! MY! I dropped the gun and it went off by accident! A common story, but usually a lie.

I would rather have the simplicity of John Browning's original design, and people should keep in mind that a so called range gun with a light trigger is not the same animal as a carry gun. If it's a carry gun, (life saving tool) It doesn't need a 3.25 lb trigger with an ice sickle break. If we can all get by with the Glock's trigger, and all of the other's similar, which are still horrible compared to a stock Colt 1911 trigger, then why do we need to be doing trigger jobs on a 1911 carry gun? If we quit insisting on light triggers on a 1911 for carry, vs range, then we probably won't need the story about the gun that went off when it got dropped.

A true accidental discharge from a dropped gun is a rare as hen's teeth.

45_auto · February 28, 2015, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue duck

If we quit insisting on light triggers on a 1911 for carry, vs range, then we probably won't need the story about the gun that went off when it got dropped.

You believe that these two cops had their guns go off because the trigger on their Glock was too light?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orloQnzBRCw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0

You can put a NY trigger (12 lbs) on every gun out there and you'll still get the exact same amount of stories about the gun that went off "accidentally" by hitting the floor.

James K · February 28, 2015, 01:26 PM

IIRC, the 1911 type pistol that started the kerfuffle was dropped from a height of about 10 feet onto the step of a steel stair case. The gun landed on its muzzle and the full length guide rod prevented the recoil spring from absorbing any of the shock. That allowed the firing pin to move forward with enough force to fire the round in the chamber. The bullet ricocheted off the step and killed a police officer. CA, where the incident happened, imposed a rule requiring pistols sold in the state to pass a "drop test"; solutions by gun makers have been twofold: a firing pin block, or a light firing pin that will not have enough inertial energy to fire a primer.

Note that the trigger, grip safety, manual safety, or position of the hammer are all irrelevant to firing pin movement in this case. In fact, the manual safety being engaged would prevent slide movement even with a GI type guide rod, creating the same condition.

Jim

**44 AMP** · February 28, 2015, 06:06 PM

Quote:

My question is who in the heck cares if the gun can go off if it's dropped barrel down.

The state of California does, for one, and others have followed their example.

The state of California also apparently believes that a law can end freak accidents, and sadly, others are following that example, as well.

Yes, a pistol ought to be "drop safe". Now, what does that mean? Does it mean that a standard GI 1911A1 (in spec) isn't drop safe because they had to drop it from a height of 30 feet, down a special track so it would land on the muzzle, on a hard surface, before it went off from the inertia of the firing pin?

(because that what CA testing had to do to get it to happen)

Its different for all different designs and even small changes can make a huge difference (like a FL guide rod).

SOOO, what's a poor pistol maker to do? IF them testers can get your pistol to fire even once, no matter what they have to do to get it to go off, you can't sell your pistol. SO, you put in an un-necessary firing pin block to absolutely ensure your gun will pass anything they can try. (or as close as humanly possible).

And since its bad PR to openly admit that you only did it to "sell guns", you say its for "enhanced safety".

James K · March 1, 2015, 05:00 PM

There is no question in my mind that the CA "drop safe" rule is just another step in a concerted effort to ban handguns. Still, CA is a very big market and gun makers are going to do everything they can to continue to meet the CA requirements if at all possible. Of course they "did it to 'sell guns'"; that is why they are in business, not to bow to the whims of the folks on this or any other site.

The discovery that a 1911 type pistol can fire if dropped on the muzzle is not new. The designers of the Polish Radom found, around 1934, that the full length solid guide rod they were using would cause the pistol to fire under that condition. That is why they put a two piece guide rod, with a spring in the middle, in the production pistols. That absorbs the shock and prevents the inertia of the firing pin from firing a chambered round.

Jim

February 28, 2015, 02:31 AM	#102
Blue Duck Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2006 Posts: 402	My question is who in the heck cares if the gun can go off if it's dropped barrel down. Let's say it does fire; where is the bullet going to go? It's going to hit the floor, at that point I suppose the bullet could bounce back up and hit someone, but it seems like the odds of all of that happening is greater then winning a small lottery. I suspect all of this dropped gun crap got started when someone somewhere inadvertently pulled the trigger and shot something or someone and blamed it on a dropped gun that went off. OH! MY! I dropped the gun and it went off by accident! A common story, but usually a lie. I would rather have the simplicity of John Browning's original design, and people should keep in mind that a so called range gun with a light trigger is not the same animal as a carry gun. If it's a carry gun, (life saving tool) It doesn't need a 3.25 lb trigger with an ice sickle break. If we can all get by with the Glock's trigger, and all of the other's similar, which are still horrible compared to a stock Colt 1911 trigger, then why do we need to be doing trigger jobs on a 1911 carry gun? If we quit insisting on light triggers on a 1911 for carry, vs range, then we probably won't need the story about the gun that went off when it got dropped. A true accidental discharge from a dropped gun is a rare as hen's teeth. Last edited by Blue Duck; February 28, 2015 at 02:43 AM.

February 27, 2015, 10:28 AM	#101
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	In spite of Slamfire's "interest" as soon as that word is used, the Series 80 firing pin block was not installed to prevent slamfires (which, as the term is generally understood) have never been a problem with the 1911. The issue was that a pistol dropped ON THE MUZZLE from a 10 foot height onto a solid surface fired due to the firing pin moving forward from inertia. It did not happen when the gun went into battery while firing normally. IIRC, the pistol in question had a full length guide rod, which did not allow the energy to be absorbed by the recoil spring, as would have been the case with a "GI" recoil spring guide. As to a gun with a loaded chamber and a lowered hammer falling on the hammer, the inertia type firing pin prevents that; the firing pin block is unnecessary. Jim

February 28, 2015, 01:26 PM	#104
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	IIRC, the 1911 type pistol that started the kerfuffle was dropped from a height of about 10 feet onto the step of a steel stair case. The gun landed on its muzzle and the full length guide rod prevented the recoil spring from absorbing any of the shock. That allowed the firing pin to move forward with enough force to fire the round in the chamber. The bullet ricocheted off the step and killed a police officer. CA, where the incident happened, imposed a rule requiring pistols sold in the state to pass a "drop test"; solutions by gun makers have been twofold: a firing pin block, or a light firing pin that will not have enough inertial energy to fire a primer. Note that the trigger, grip safety, manual safety, or position of the hammer are all irrelevant to firing pin movement in this case. In fact, the manual safety being engaged would prevent slide movement even with a GI type guide rod, creating the same condition. Jim

March 1, 2015, 05:00 PM	#106
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There is no question in my mind that the CA "drop safe" rule is just another step in a concerted effort to ban handguns. Still, CA is a very big market and gun makers are going to do everything they can to continue to meet the CA requirements if at all possible. Of course they "did it to 'sell guns'"; that is why they are in business, not to bow to the whims of the folks on this or any other site. The discovery that a 1911 type pistol can fire if dropped on the muzzle is not new. The designers of the Polish Radom found, around 1934, that the full length solid guide rod they were using would cause the pistol to fire under that condition. That is why they put a two piece guide rod, with a spring in the middle, in the production pistols. That absorbs the shock and prevents the inertia of the firing pin from firing a chambered round. Jim