Front sight jumps .... Help

THORN74 · June 30, 2015, 08:39 PM

Ok, I'm in my 40s and have. Been shooting over twenty years. I am a better than average shooter. I shoot 1911s, sig p226, ruger sr22, radom p64, and an m&p9c

With my m&p and ONLY my m&p I have a front sight shake/jump issue. It's not a hand steadiness issue while aiming. As I pull the trigger and the trigger breaks the shot I can see the front sight (whole front end the sight is not loose) jump/jerk to the right.

It's a pre-sheild gun, the stock trigger was gritty and really bad jumpy. I have put in an apex duty carry kit and the trigger pull is WAY smoother. It did reduce the "jump" but it didn't eliminate it. The gun was also printing it impacts to the left. This seems counter intuitive to the right jump. But that what happened. After the apex trigger kit it now shoots much straighter.

I have changed grips adjusted finger placement on the trigger. Nothing seems to help. I have a feeling it's the geometry of the trigger/sear mechanism. Again I DO NOT HAVE THIS ISSUE WITH OTHER HANDGUNS. I don't think it's me causing it. I could be wrong though

Thoughts?

gothcopter · June 30, 2015, 09:56 PM

Quote:

As I pull the trigger and the trigger breaks the shot I can see the front sight (whole front end the sight is not loose) jump/jerk to the right.

Does the sight jump only during live fire, or does it jump during dry fire as well?

DanTSX · July 1, 2015, 12:04 AM

Pull the trigger at your first knuckle, not the pad of your finger. Polymer, striker fired guns tend to yaw a bit.

I've seen this in my own shooting, as well as with others. More trigger finger seems to fix it in most cases. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but it's time to re-think some of the marksmanship principals that were originally developed for rifle shooting.

savagest · July 1, 2015, 09:23 AM

Hold tighter with your off hand maybe.

mavracer · July 1, 2015, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Does the sight jump only during live fire, or does it jump during dry fire as well?

+1

Also does it happen when shooting the P226 and SR22 in DA mode?

dyl · July 1, 2015, 11:01 AM

I have an M&P compact. I feel as if my pistol is a bit more sensitive to trigger finger placement and pull.

In my particular pistol after experimentation I noticed that for my particular hold and for the small or medium grip panel, my trigger likes a specific part of my trigger finger to be used. I use the center of my fingerprint when depressing the trigger and my trigger finger doesn't travel in the same motion I would when I am making a fist. I have to leave that last knuckle (DIP) a little loose and opened a bit as I depress the trigger. Then the pistol shoots well. Mentally, if I'm trying to "feel" the hinge in the trigger it usually does the trick. You want to present a flat surface to the trigger throughout the breaking point and through all of the overtravel.

You could seek to eliminate overtravel with a a DIY Burwell trigger job if you have one of the older M&P's, or order an Apex hard sear, or forward set sear with forward set trigger. Or a factory Performance Center sear. All except for the Forward Set Sear and Forward Set Trigger will bring the trigger break towards the back of the path of motion and cause less overtravel. However if the issue is that the trigger break is farther to the rear than you are used to, a larger backstrap would be more effective.

I think the root cause is a difference in the length of pull and the M&P's oval shaped cross section to the grip. Most of my other pistols have a boxy cross section but both the front and backstrap of the M&P's are rounded making it unique so it takes some learning. Changing the backstraps will change the length of pull and the breaking point of the trigger may be optimal for you with one or another back strap.

Keep experimenting with not only trigger finger placement, and how much you let each joint of your trigger finger move while pulling. Take note of exactly what works.

I agree with a looser grip on the trigger finger hand (main job should be pulling the trigger) and a firmer grip with the offhand. Watch out that you're not tensing up with muscles of either hand in the *middle* of your trigger pull but you are as unchanging as a clamp. No muscular twitches, only thing changing is the trigger finger. Easier said than done

Finally, see if it actually makes a difference at the range. If you shoot well and to POA, it may not matter much.

I shoot fairly well with my M&P and am still experimenting with it. I have yet to shoot much with the large backstrap and held off on that because of discomfort when carrying IWB.

g.willikers · July 1, 2015, 01:16 PM

It's easy enough to find out if the cause is the shooter or the gun.
Just have someone else shoot it.

ammo.crafter · July 1, 2015, 01:43 PM

HMM.

Did you try shooting at a target analysis target? It shows you why your shots are hitting where they hit.

Make sure you're not jerking the trigger at the last moment.

Hold the gun firmly with your non-dominant hand and with your dominant hand lightly hold the gun and only move your trigger finger.

Of course you could simply use a Ransom Rest and see what happens.

Good luck

THORN74 · July 1, 2015, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavracer

+1

Also does it happen when shooting the P226 and SR22 in DA mode?

Nope doesn't happen with any of the other handguns I shoot. The m&p is my only striker fired gun.... Everything else is hammer

Dragline45 · July 1, 2015, 04:07 PM

Where is the placement of your finger on the trigger?

James K · July 1, 2015, 06:31 PM

No, it is the gun. More specifically, it is the firing pin release. A single action trigger (e.g., 1911) requires very little pressure to fire; some DA/SA or DAO pistols have an smooth, even pull, even in DA. But a striker fired pistol has a pull that increases as the tension on the firing pin spring is compressed, and it is at the point of greatest tension that the sear releases the firing pin. In many pistols, that means the sudden release of tension causes a "jump" in the trigger finger, pulling the gun off target. All striker fired pistols, even of the same make and model are not the same in this regard, and smoothing up the sear and firing pin surfaces can help, as can a reduction in firing pin spring tension. So can practice, including concentration on the sights and ignoring the trigger pull. But no, it is not the shooter's imagination; it is the gun.

Jim

DanTSX · July 1, 2015, 08:19 PM

Quote:

HMM.

Did you try shooting at a target analysis target? It shows you why your shots are hitting where they hit.

Make sure you're not jerking the trigger at the last moment.

Hold the gun firmly with your non-dominant hand and with your dominant hand lightly hold the gun and only move your trigger finger.

Of course you could simply use a Ransom Rest and see what happens.

Good luck

Those are really more for one-handed bullseye style shooting. In fact, they can be very misleading for more contemporary two-handed shooting.

But I do agree, that we need to see what the OP is shooting on a target. Expectations of what is "accurate" vary from person to person.

However, I do find that most striker fired guns need MORE trigger finger on them. Especially the M&P and Glocks of this world.

The 9mm M&P does have a history of accuracy problems, but it should still group decently at close range, and impact POA.

Walt Sherrill · July 4, 2015, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanTSX

Those are really more for one-handed bullseye style shooting. In fact, they can be very misleading for more contemporary two-handed shooting.

True, that chart WAS created for one-handed Bullseye competition, but many shooters, especially beginners, don't do two-handed right. For those folks, the strong hand continues to do most of the work and the gun behave as though the shooter was using a one-handed bullseye grip. (This is particularly noticeable with too much or too little finger.)

A recent Guns & Ammo article by Kyle Lamb makes the point that most folks squeeze too tightly with the strong while the offhand is just along for the ride. He suggests that the offhand ought to be doing about 60%-70% of the work of positioning the gun, allowing the strong hand fingers to relax a bit. Doing that will make it easier to press the trigger in a less "jerky" manner.

(I inferred that he believes the hand works more as a unit than individual components/fingers; when you tighten the grip on the strong hand you can create as many problems as your resolve. That makes a lot of sense to me.)

HighValleyRanch · July 4, 2015, 08:22 PM

James K,
If that were true, then all shooters would have similar troubles with striker fire pistols.

It's a shooter related problem because in order to avoid that striker "drop" one needs to concentrate on a consistent grip and make the trigger finger independent of the hold.
Since the body cannot react as fast as the shot fired, any movement after the trigger breaks cannot affect the shot.

Shooter should correct this by concentrating on the constant grip pressure and make the trigger pull subconscious and make sure grip pressure is even through the entire shot process, and even hold through a little longer before the reset to correct this "drop".

Even with beginning bullseyes shooters who have the best guns and triggers, you see this movement right at the trigger break as they relax their concentration right at the moment of break, rather than concentrating through the shot. The break should be in the MIDDLE of the shot process, not the end is a mantra well learned.

A drill taught to me by a former Olympic shooter was using a dowel cut to the right length. Make a fist as in holding your pistol grip. Extend the finger as in a trigger pull. Place the dowel where your finger should contact the trigger and the other end of the dowel in the web of your hand. Practice pressing the dowel STRAIGHT back into web watching to correct any sideways movement front or back. This will help teach a straight back press instead of a hinging trigger finger which results in shots being pulled off.

marine6680 · July 4, 2015, 11:50 PM

It's a byproduct of the trigger system. Strikers are different and requires different way of pulling the trigger than other types.

Overtravel can play a big role in this as well. As all the tension that builds up as you pull the trigger leading up to the break, suddenly gets released after the break. The longer the over travel, the more chance to cause the jerking movement of the sights. Tension builds differently in a striker action as well... It all plays into it.

So it is the shooter causing the issue, as a byproduct of how the striker action works.

If I shoot hammer pistols a lot, and then go back to striker, I definitely notice a decrease in accuracy until I get a bit of trigger time on it.

It's curable with practice. Getting a trigger job can help as well.

I will say that a bit more trigger finger and some tweaking of my technique helped a lot. The good thing is, the new way works for hammer pistols as well, so it doesn't hurt my shooting with them.

June 30, 2015, 08:39 PM	#1
THORN74 Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2010 Location: Chicago 'Burbs Posts: 543	Front sight jumps .... Help Ok, I'm in my 40s and have. Been shooting over twenty years. I am a better than average shooter. I shoot 1911s, sig p226, ruger sr22, radom p64, and an m&p9c With my m&p and ONLY my m&p I have a front sight shake/jump issue. It's not a hand steadiness issue while aiming. As I pull the trigger and the trigger breaks the shot I can see the front sight (whole front end the sight is not loose) jump/jerk to the right. It's a pre-sheild gun, the stock trigger was gritty and really bad jumpy. I have put in an apex duty carry kit and the trigger pull is WAY smoother. It did reduce the "jump" but it didn't eliminate it. The gun was also printing it impacts to the left. This seems counter intuitive to the right jump. But that what happened. After the apex trigger kit it now shoots much straighter. I have changed grips adjusted finger placement on the trigger. Nothing seems to help. I have a feeling it's the geometry of the trigger/sear mechanism. Again I DO NOT HAVE THIS ISSUE WITH OTHER HANDGUNS. I don't think it's me causing it. I could be wrong though Thoughts?

July 1, 2015, 01:16 PM	#7
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	It's easy enough to find out if the cause is the shooter or the gun. Just have someone else shoot it. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 1, 2015, 01:43 PM	#8
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	front sight HMM. Did you try shooting at a target analysis target? It shows you why your shots are hitting where they hit. Make sure you're not jerking the trigger at the last moment. Hold the gun firmly with your non-dominant hand and with your dominant hand lightly hold the gun and only move your trigger finger. Of course you could simply use a Ransom Rest and see what happens. Good luck __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

July 4, 2015, 08:22 PM	#14
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	James K, If that were true, then all shooters would have similar troubles with striker fire pistols. It's a shooter related problem because in order to avoid that striker "drop" one needs to concentrate on a consistent grip and make the trigger finger independent of the hold. Since the body cannot react as fast as the shot fired, any movement after the trigger breaks cannot affect the shot. Shooter should correct this by concentrating on the constant grip pressure and make the trigger pull subconscious and make sure grip pressure is even through the entire shot process, and even hold through a little longer before the reset to correct this "drop". Even with beginning bullseyes shooters who have the best guns and triggers, you see this movement right at the trigger break as they relax their concentration right at the moment of break, rather than concentrating through the shot. The break should be in the MIDDLE of the shot process, not the end is a mantra well learned. A drill taught to me by a former Olympic shooter was using a dowel cut to the right length. Make a fist as in holding your pistol grip. Extend the finger as in a trigger pull. Place the dowel where your finger should contact the trigger and the other end of the dowel in the web of your hand. Practice pressing the dowel STRAIGHT back into web watching to correct any sideways movement front or back. This will help teach a straight back press instead of a hinging trigger finger which results in shots being pulled off. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

July 1, 2015, 12:04 AM	#3
DanTSX Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Posts: 318	Pull the trigger at your first knuckle, not the pad of your finger. Polymer, striker fired guns tend to yaw a bit. I've seen this in my own shooting, as well as with others. More trigger finger seems to fix it in most cases. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but it's time to re-think some of the marksmanship principals that were originally developed for rifle shooting.

July 1, 2015, 09:23 AM	#4
savagest Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 110	Hold tighter with your off hand maybe.

July 1, 2015, 11:01 AM	#6
dyl Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,310	I have an M&P compact. I feel as if my pistol is a bit more sensitive to trigger finger placement and pull. In my particular pistol after experimentation I noticed that for my particular hold and for the small or medium grip panel, my trigger likes a specific part of my trigger finger to be used. I use the center of my fingerprint when depressing the trigger and my trigger finger doesn't travel in the same motion I would when I am making a fist. I have to leave that last knuckle (DIP) a little loose and opened a bit as I depress the trigger. Then the pistol shoots well. Mentally, if I'm trying to "feel" the hinge in the trigger it usually does the trick. You want to present a flat surface to the trigger throughout the breaking point and through all of the overtravel. You could seek to eliminate overtravel with a a DIY Burwell trigger job if you have one of the older M&P's, or order an Apex hard sear, or forward set sear with forward set trigger. Or a factory Performance Center sear. All except for the Forward Set Sear and Forward Set Trigger will bring the trigger break towards the back of the path of motion and cause less overtravel. However if the issue is that the trigger break is farther to the rear than you are used to, a larger backstrap would be more effective. I think the root cause is a difference in the length of pull and the M&P's oval shaped cross section to the grip. Most of my other pistols have a boxy cross section but both the front and backstrap of the M&P's are rounded making it unique so it takes some learning. Changing the backstraps will change the length of pull and the breaking point of the trigger may be optimal for you with one or another back strap. Keep experimenting with not only trigger finger placement, and how much you let each joint of your trigger finger move while pulling. Take note of exactly what works. I agree with a looser grip on the trigger finger hand (main job should be pulling the trigger) and a firmer grip with the offhand. Watch out that you're not tensing up with muscles of either hand in the middle of your trigger pull but you are as unchanging as a clamp. No muscular twitches, only thing changing is the trigger finger. Easier said than done Finally, see if it actually makes a difference at the range. If you shoot well and to POA, it may not matter much. I shoot fairly well with my M&P and am still experimenting with it. I have yet to shoot much with the large backstrap and held off on that because of discomfort when carrying IWB.

July 1, 2015, 04:07 PM	#10
Dragline45 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Posts: 3,513	Where is the placement of your finger on the trigger?

July 1, 2015, 06:31 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	No, it is the gun. More specifically, it is the firing pin release. A single action trigger (e.g., 1911) requires very little pressure to fire; some DA/SA or DAO pistols have an smooth, even pull, even in DA. But a striker fired pistol has a pull that increases as the tension on the firing pin spring is compressed, and it is at the point of greatest tension that the sear releases the firing pin. In many pistols, that means the sudden release of tension causes a "jump" in the trigger finger, pulling the gun off target. All striker fired pistols, even of the same make and model are not the same in this regard, and smoothing up the sear and firing pin surfaces can help, as can a reduction in firing pin spring tension. So can practice, including concentration on the sights and ignoring the trigger pull. But no, it is not the shooter's imagination; it is the gun. Jim

July 4, 2015, 11:50 PM	#15
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	It's a byproduct of the trigger system. Strikers are different and requires different way of pulling the trigger than other types. Overtravel can play a big role in this as well. As all the tension that builds up as you pull the trigger leading up to the break, suddenly gets released after the break. The longer the over travel, the more chance to cause the jerking movement of the sights. Tension builds differently in a striker action as well... It all plays into it. So it is the shooter causing the issue, as a byproduct of how the striker action works. If I shoot hammer pistols a lot, and then go back to striker, I definitely notice a decrease in accuracy until I get a bit of trigger time on it. It's curable with practice. Getting a trigger job can help as well. I will say that a bit more trigger finger and some tweaking of my technique helped a lot. The good thing is, the new way works for hammer pistols as well, so it doesn't hurt my shooting with them.