The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 8, 2010, 01:21 AM   #1
Smoke Screen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Cold Rocks Hold, Aiel Waste
Posts: 186
Officers, LEO's...How many times a day do you draw your weapon?

Officers, how many times do you draw your weapon each day? I realize that this might vary greatly; area of service, types of calls responded to each day, position in the dept, etc...but just curious as to how often on average you need to draw your weapon each day. 0? Once? Once a week? I think the answer might surprise the rest of us! If a LEO and responding, please include the number and your area of service (Ie...vice beat, Oklahoma City, OK. or detective, Smallsville, ND)
__________________
Man is nothing else but what he makes of himself.
Smoke Screen is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 04:51 AM   #2
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,560
Hey Smoke Screen...

I'll answer your question based on my own experiences working as a police officer. First off I commend you as you have partially answered yourself. To a great degree the frequency I drew my firearm depended on my assignment.

During my career I was fortunate to enjoy a wide variety of assignments. I'll denote the assignment, and estimate how often I unholstered.

Rookie on patrol in a medium crime area... about once or twice per month.

On patrol in a high crime area... About two or three times a month.

On plain clothes anti-crime duty in a high crime area... about twice a day.

While assigned to city wide task force, and depending on the area about three or four times a day.

While working patrol in a very high crime, very violent area... Many times a day.

While working in a SNEU (street narcotics enforcement unit) about four, or five times a month.

While on patrol as plain clothed anti-crime about once per day.


While working as a detective investigator almost never.

While working as an investigator of firearms related crime I drew my firearm about five or six times every night.

Again the frequency an officer unholsters his firearm depends on the assignment, and the individual officer. There are officers who do 20 years of service, and brag that they never had to draw their weapon. Again... it depends on where the officer works.

Now the contraversial part. This is my own opinion. Every active cop I have ever met agree's with it though. In most (not all) police departments of over 100 sworn personel. 90% of all policing, (arrests, enforcement, agressive patrol) is done by about 10% of the sworn officers in that department.

I hope that to some degree this answer's your question.

Glenn D.
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 09:44 AM   #3
WC145
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2008
Location: Downeast Maine
Posts: 1,836
I work in a very rural area on the coast doing mostly marine conservation enforcement and harbormaster duties. It's very seldom that I draw my gun "in the line of duty", in fact, there's only been a couple of times in the almost 7 years I've been doing this.
There are other times, however, that did not involve "customers", that I've had to draw or use my gun - to put down a couple of deer that had been hit by cars, shoot some feral cats, shoot at a couple of big dogs that attacked me, occasional pot shots at coyotes, and once I had to dispatch a sick, nuisance beaver. Ah, the rigors of rural law enforcement.
__________________
"If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge or jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - LtCol Jeff Cooper
WC145 is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 10:50 AM   #4
Deputy Dog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2009
Posts: 247
Three times on the force city wide Impact unit,
Three times while at an armored car company
Twice while performing VIP detail
Four times while out and about doing errands
And 6 or 7 times while serving warrants as a Constable

Not a single one of them ended in gunfire thank god. I have had 30 year veterans tell me that, that is excessive and they have never had to draw their weapon once. I simply responded with I have been in the right place in the wrong time". Luckily I shoot on a regular bassis on a practical level. At least 4-500 rounds a month - month and half.

DD
Deputy Dog is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 11:12 AM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
I'm not a LEO and I don't play one on the internet, but earlier this year, about April, a LEO friend of mine mentioned in casual conversation that he had drawn his gun more times this year than he had all of the previous year - 8 times. This is mostly rural Central NY. So, I would guess that a lot of it varies with "luck". 8 times in one year, 8 times by the end of April the next year.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 11:59 AM   #6
twobit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2010
Location: Coyote Creak, SW Texas
Posts: 597
Varies greatly depending on the call or assignment. : (some examples)
  • clearing a unsecured business at night
  • clearing an unsecured residence during day (alarm call)
  • hold up alarm
  • felony traffic stop
  • some domestics
  • shots fired call
  • person with weapon call
  • assist officer in distress call
  • warrant service (varies by circumstances)
All the above could be several times a shift or weeks/months/years between these occuring.
These are just few that come to mind. Key indicators are officer safety, safety of another, what is known about the scene, what is not known, area of town, time of occurence, what is the perceived threat, are you alone or with backup. My experience is that night shift patrol was my highest frequency of drawing a weapon.

In today's world hearing an officer say he never draws his weapon is not good practice if talking about a patrol officer that is exposed to the above type calls. Some of the above examples dictate the primary officer drawing his handgun and secondary officers covering with either shotgun or patrol rifle. It is standard training that with certain types of calls, your weapon should be in your hand. If it is not, then training is needed to correct the problem.

I began my career in the mid eighties in a large metropolitan area and on night shift patrol. There were nights that the frequency was 6 or more. Now I am in a rural area as an administrator and can go a year or more without reaching that per shift number or even half of it. The concern is to stay sharp with training when the day to day job doesn't expose you to the frequency of the dangers once faced.
__________________
Twobit,
Strive to live up to the opinion that your dog has of you.

Last edited by twobit; December 8, 2010 at 12:08 PM.
twobit is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 01:28 PM   #7
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Rainbow City, Alabama
Posts: 7,167
My grandfather spent 32 years as a police officer in a relatively small SW GA town. He eventually retired as Chief in 1975. In 32 years, he never had to draw his weapon a single time. He did, however, frequently come back with a bloody blackjack after breaking up fights and hauling in drunks.
Doyle is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 03:22 PM   #8
Long Path
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 1999
Location: N. Texas
Posts: 5,899
Also, there's "drawing down on someone" (pointing at a suspect or in their general direction), and just unholstering.

During alarm calls, clearing houses with open doors, investigations of suspicious activities, or just hinkey traffic stops that make me think that I'd rather have a gun in my hand from the start than have to catch up later-- I'll carry my pistol alongside my leg, out of the way.

I've actually pointed my gun at people on duty so few times, that I believe that I could count them on my fingers and toes in the last decade. I have a deep sense of dread when I do so. The first time I did so, I covered a drunk driver that was so erratic, the trooper thought that he was trying to evade (no, he was just that drunk). After we had him in cuffs, I put away my Colt 1911, and became aware of a soreness on the top of my right thumb. It was from pressing the safety UP into the Safe position, as hard as I could, the whole time that I was covering the suspect!
__________________
"Welcome to The Firing Line, a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership."T.F.L. Policy Page
Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap? ____________
Long Path is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 03:29 PM   #9
twobit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2010
Location: Coyote Creak, SW Texas
Posts: 597
my post was referencing "unholstering"
__________________
Twobit,
Strive to live up to the opinion that your dog has of you.
twobit is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 04:06 PM   #10
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,649
Quote:
my post was referencing "unholstering"
In that case, usually once per shift on average.
5whiskey is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 04:18 PM   #11
Mr. James
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 1,521
Fascinating responses, especially Glenn Dee's. I guess I shouldn't be, but I was surprised you had to unholster a weapon that frequently. But with your post, it all makes sense.

I guess laymen don't really consider how many types of calls make drawing a weapon advisable. As Long Path so pithily said, "I'd rather have a gun in my hand from the start than have to catch up later."

Thanks, gentlemen, and thank you for your service.

Bob James
__________________
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
Mr. James is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 05:04 PM   #12
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,446
Quote:
my post was referencing "unholstering"
Thanks for that distinction, as there's a HUGE difference between unholstering, or coming to the low ready, and actually assuming a point/aim stance at a suspect.

Our SOP only requires noting the low ready in the narrative of the report. A point/aim, however, is considered a use of force and the appropriate (too) long forms have to be filed.

When that became policy, it's amazing how many guys centered their practice on going from the low ready to point/aim. What some guys will do to avoid paperwork.

As to the OP's question, we're a department of 50 sworn officers serving a city of roughly 23,000. Coming up with an "average" is hard to do. I've had weeks of "ho-hum" time where a gun was never touched, and then a day comes along where unholstering might happen four or five times in one shift.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt. Charlie is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 10:49 PM   #13
Hook686
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2005
Location: USA The Great State of California
Posts: 2,090
I think things have changed over the years. 'The Newhall Incident' in California had a lot to do with how officers approach a situation. The old days are long gone.


http://www.chp.ca.gov/memorial/newhall.html

As I recall, Officer Gore approached (felony stop) with his shotgun butt resting on his hip. The bad guy noted this and decided he could take the cop. The rest is history.
__________________
Hook686

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.

Last edited by Hook686; December 8, 2010 at 11:01 PM.
Hook686 is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 11:04 PM   #14
Sefner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 769
As has been alluded to in some posts, it is now common for police officers to unholster their weapons when there exists a possibility of an armed conflict. This is a result of the "21-foot rule" studies done in the 80s and 90s. Many times you will see officers unholster their weapon and just hold it down at their side while investigating residences or close spaces. Just a thought when you ask for statistics and numbers like this
__________________
gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner
Sefner is offline  
Old December 8, 2010, 11:07 PM   #15
silvercorvette
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2010
Location: Anderson SC
Posts: 466
The last time I read up on it the average LEO never had to fire his gun in his entire career.

In my 20 years I unsnapped the retaining strap fairly often and rested my hand on the gun. But during that time period NY city cops could get in trouble for even resting their hand on their gun. My department was about 40 miles east on NY city on Long Island. I have been retired for 20 years so I don't reacall how often I took out my gun but it was not very often.
__________________
I am broke, I spent my money on fast cars, guns, reloading equipment and ammo, the rest my money was wasted on nonessential stuff
silvercorvette is offline  
Old December 9, 2010, 07:49 AM   #16
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,560
I began my career in policing in NYC in 1973. I dont ever recall any prohibition to placing ones hand on the firearm. In fact the PAFTS (Police academy firearms and tactics section) developed, and taught a tactic called "covering from the loaded position". Where the Officer is encouraged unloose his pistol/revolver from his holster, and cover a subject/scene/situation without actually fully drawing. I believe that this was an alternative to a full draw and displaying the gun. The NYPD has never in my time or after directed any officer to not put his own safety first.

However the NYPD has a very efficient program for civilians to make complaints about the police. It is possible that an individual or group of officers drew down on someone and that person or another made a complaint. And the officers may have been instructed to be more judicious when drawing their firearms. But then some civilians tend to complain about some weird things... I know an officer who recieved a CC (civilian complaint) for using the word "but" too often. I myself recieved a complaint for saying "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do"...

Glenn Dee
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old December 9, 2010, 09:30 AM   #17
Deputy Dog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2009
Posts: 247
It is amazing how many people think that if you draw your weapon, the BG is going to just throw his hands up in the air and surrender. One night on patrol my partner and I came into a park that is known for trafficing. Four subjects in the vehicle, windows slightly open and mj smoke coming out. We approached the vehicle with caution, the trespassing and 94 c gave us PC to search vehicle, ordered everyone out of vehicle, driver refused, back up was on the way, at that point one of passengers states that the driver has a handgun, back up arrives, driver then reached under the seat, he had four guns drawn on him in about 1.5 seconds and ordered to stop or we will shoot. He showed us his hands and came up empty handed, we yank him from the car, cauteously search the vehicle and found a pellet gun that looked exactly identical to the service pistol we switched from, with the knob on the bottum of the grip cut off. We almost lit this kid up for his own stupididty. We were all hoping we would not half to shoot, but we were going home to our loved ones at the end of our shifts. I had my gun drawn and hidden behind my leg because one of the subjects I delt with had priors for A&B on a police officer, and I was the back on that call so I recognized him. And with four of them and two of us, no chances...

DD
Deputy Dog is offline  
Old December 9, 2010, 10:41 AM   #18
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
"Officers, LEO's...How many times a day do you draw your weapon?"

I don't draw my draw a weapon daily, but if I fell the need to do so, I do so, and usually bring it on target. No cue to fire? When I'm satisfied, I return it to the holster.
__________________
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
Erik is offline  
Old December 9, 2010, 10:56 AM   #19
Jt1971
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2010
Posts: 40
The amount of times an officer draws their weapon each year is directly proportional to the amount of burglar alarms in the area they patrol. Even if no actual burglaries occur in the area, alarms go off for no reason all the time. When an alarm does go off, then someone has to go investigate it and go into the house or business to make sure no one is there. The person going into the building is not going to go in with a holstered weapon. As a precaution, they will unholster their pistol and have it at the ready just in case. If you listen to a police radio in an urban area, the number 1 call (besides domestic violence) is usually to go investigate the alarm that has gone off.

In a rural area, police probably rarely if ever unholster their weapon. Around here, the last time I saw an officer unholster their weapon was many years ago when the decision was made to put down a wild dog that was run over by a vehicle. However, when I lived in Los Angeles, unholstering the weapon was a common affair.

Other factors are such things as gang activity. If an officer pulls you over and has reason to suspect you are involved in a gang, then more then likely another officer will have an unholstered weapon standing off to the side. In the city of Long Beach in California, on Atlantic Blvd, they would operate two man cars. When they made a traffic stop and suspected you might be involved in a gang, then one officer would stand over to the side with a shotgun at the ready. That was an especially risky area though. There was a guy who came back from Iraq after serving during the initial invasion. He was at a Christmas party in Long Beach and got hit by some rounds. So in an area like that, you have more reason to have your sidearm at the ready where as in a rural town where not much happens there really is not much of a reason.
Jt1971 is offline  
Old December 9, 2010, 11:10 AM   #20
Silvanus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2005
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 1,324
Working in a quiet part (mostly banks, lawyer's offices, schools and a couple of European instututions) of Luxembourg city... About once every couple of months. I do walk around with an MP5 for some tasks, but that's not the same as drawing a weapon for me.
Silvanus is offline  
Old December 9, 2010, 04:11 PM   #21
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,971
When I was young, my Uncle, a Sheriff almost had me convinced to join up. My cousin did about 12 years earlier, he hadnt pulled a weapon in duty but my Uncle had and he was in a few fire fights made the local news and such.

Now I come into work to the sound of police sirens... several shootings close to campus. Makes me sorta glad I didnt join.

I say the same thing about my Uncle was a Union Pacific train man along with my Grandpa (Granpa had over 50 years) cousin Tim went and he is still in.

Not all jobs are what they seem. Some can be deadly, policemen and railroad workers, 2 of the dangerous IMHO.

God Bless those that join.
markj is offline  
Old December 9, 2010, 05:58 PM   #22
silvercorvette
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2010
Location: Anderson SC
Posts: 466
Quote:
I began my career in policing in NYC in 1973.
I worked in Suffolk County from 1970 to 1990 I i do remember hearing something about a NY city rule that ruled that placing your hand on a holstered gun was considered threatening. If you worked NYPD you obviously know more than me, but I do seem to remember the civilian review board made life difficult for a NYPD officer. Is it possible that this topic was in the news because of publicity from the civilian review board?

Also back in the 1970s Suffolk had a holster that required you to stick your finger in the trigger guard to remove the gun from the holster. I think NY city had a similar type holster.

For those not familiar with SCPD our entire department was about the same size as one NYPD academy class
__________________
I am broke, I spent my money on fast cars, guns, reloading equipment and ammo, the rest my money was wasted on nonessential stuff
silvercorvette is offline  
Old December 10, 2010, 12:58 AM   #23
Smoke Screen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Cold Rocks Hold, Aiel Waste
Posts: 186
Wow! Thanks for the responses fellas. Lots of things to think about. Just for statements sake, yes, I was referring to the act of actually unholstering your sidearm; even if it was just to sweep a building where an alarm went off. I too, would like to say thanks for your service. You LEO's make our nation a safer place, even in rural areas.

Sounds like New York state has a few more barriers in place to make it a hassle for Officers to protect themselves! Thats too bad. to Jt1971 I used to live in Long Beach. I agree, it isn't pretty. When the L.A. riots arrived, we had to go down to my Grandmas place in Del Mar to wait it out. As a grown man now, there are several things that I learned that I will do if anything like that happens again. Luckily, I live in one of the top 5 safest cities in the U.S. Its got a gun-toting population of about 80/100k or so.
__________________
Man is nothing else but what he makes of himself.
Smoke Screen is offline  
Old December 10, 2010, 09:21 PM   #24
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke Screen
Sounds like New York state...

That would be New York CITY. 99% of this state is not city, particularly THAT city and has little, nothing, in common with that place.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 11, 2010, 08:51 PM   #25
silvercorvette
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2010
Location: Anderson SC
Posts: 466
Quote:
That would be New York CITY. 99% of this state is not city, particularly THAT city and has little, nothing, in common with that place.
The northern and southern part of NY state are almost two different states. Unfortunately even the more friendly north still has to put up with the 10 round mag limit and a few other laws that are state wide. Norther NY is a lot nicer place to live but I can't deal with the cold. I am happy I moved to SC because aside from the health issues associated with the cold weather it's a more affordable place to live on a retirement pension.
__________________
I am broke, I spent my money on fast cars, guns, reloading equipment and ammo, the rest my money was wasted on nonessential stuff
silvercorvette is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11133 seconds with 8 queries