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Old January 7, 2011, 08:11 PM   #51
USCTrojanSigFan
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In my UNQUALIFIED opinion, if you pull and fire on somebody who was going to force you into a fist fight, at least in a state like California (and probably in most other states), you are facing an uphill battle to stay out of prison for a lengthly period. That assumes you have the CCW, which if you don't you are really screwed.
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Old January 7, 2011, 08:42 PM   #52
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If you absolutely cannot walk away and deescalate the situation,you might need to draw if you dont feel comfortable with hand to hand defense.If you are being threatened,and are in fear that the offenders physical capabilities are too great for you to defend yourself,go ahead and bring the guns out.Its your life.
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Old January 7, 2011, 10:24 PM   #53
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USCTrojanSigFan: not meaning to demean or disrespect you, but your statement is exactly the type the liberals, socialists, and Kommifornia styled pacifists thrive upon.

The test is not whether one is bigger, one has a gun, one is forcing another into a fist fight: the test is simply "Did I at the moment I pulled my gun out and fired, in fact, fear for my life or fear imminent grave physical harm?"

If the answer is "Yes", . . . then you shoot to stop that fear or threat.

Simple, . . . straight forward, . . . up and up. Anything else, . . . like you said,
Quote:
you are facing an uphill battle to stay out of prison for a lengthly period.
May God bless,
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Old January 7, 2011, 11:11 PM   #54
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As an aside Sam Colt had been said to say (paraphrased since it's been a long time since I've seen the qoute) "God did not make all men equal that's why I made the Colt revolver" I am not a big person, rather skinny in fact, and if someone 6'+ and 250 lbs. was bent on beating me to death I would shoot to stop that possibility. Not to mention, I'm just a 68 year old guy that probably couldn't outrun the BG either.
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Old January 8, 2011, 05:23 PM   #55
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@Dwight55: You sound completely out of touch with reality. We read all the time about people who shoot others who were unarmed after being cornered in a fight, etc...it does not end pretty for them with the law. Just saying, enjoy explaining why you shot an unarmed man to the police, DA and possibly jury. It's probably not going to be as clear as you would like it to be.
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Old January 8, 2011, 05:58 PM   #56
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No Dwight is not out of touch with reality at all. In fact he is quite in touch with what established law states regarding disparity of force. You on the other hand need to go do some research, then come back and tell us what you have found out.
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Old January 8, 2011, 07:20 PM   #57
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In less a significant portion of society would consider you to be "frail" or "out matched having been injured already," then I do not recommend relying on a pistol at the outset of a hand to hand altercation.

"If you pull your gun, it's in your hand and you have control of the situation."
Firearms are not talismans providing any number of attributes commonly ascribed to them on various forums, to include control.
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Old January 9, 2011, 04:38 PM   #58
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@jhenry

Enjoy explaining the legal standard to the police, DA and jury. As I stated alread, there are many cases of people arguing the legal standard of self defense and losing because nobody buys the argument that you had to shoot an UNARMED man. I am not aware of any cases where somebody shoots an unarmed man and is acquitted. Although they probably exist, I suspect they are in a very small minority. Perhaps you are the one that needs to research.

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Old January 9, 2011, 05:45 PM   #59
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Get a copy if this and read an understand it http://www.amazon.com/Florida-Gun-Ow.../dp/1889632007.

There is also case (common) law to consider (and in some states it IS the ONLY law governing the legal use of deadly force - like Virginia).

There are all sorts of 'gotchas' buried in the case law of many states (and sub-municipalities).

In Virginia fists are a weapon, but NOT a DEADLY weapon.
Responding with deadly force is going to require a LOT of legal work to defend you sionce you are behind the eight ball of case law.

Simple fear is not adequate.

Self defense is an 'affirmative defense.'

You admit to homicide.

You then have the burden of showing it was within the law and necessary to protect yourself (or another).

The detailed rules are different in every state.

Did you have ANY part in initiating the fight?

Did you meet any rules of retreat?

Did you escalate 'mutual combat' ('let's settle this outside') to a lethal level?

It is liable to be an expensive lesson, even if you win the case (and unlike the police you have neither the FOP, a union, or the state to defend you).

Retreat is just about always a better option (until you cannot).



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Old January 9, 2011, 09:24 PM   #60
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USC, I am really not trying to be too hard on anyone here, but you may want to take a good look at the tone of your posts. Calling someone "out of touch with reality" is a pretty astounding thing to say considering you have presented nothing in that attack of any substance. In your reply to me you also present nothing of substance.

The legal standard which is in effect in all 50 states regarding the legitimate use of deadly force revolves around the assailant having the MEANS to cause death or serious bodily harm, the OPPORTUNITY to use those means, and the INTENT (stated or implied) to use those means. Some jurisdictions use the term ABILITY in place of MEANS.

Disparity of Force refers to a difference in the ability to apply force in a life or limb threatening situation. The disparity can be to such an extent that the victim is in threat of life and limb even if the assailant has only his or her hands and feet as weapons. You may find this to be amazing but....hands and feet have caused death and great bodily harm for literally thousands of years. You can look that one up if you wish. In situations where the victim, for example, is smaller (females or small persons), older, has a heart issue, is disabled in some fashion, they can easily be in immediate danger of the loss of life or limb from an attacker armed with nothing more than hands to strangle or boots to stomp in a skull. In your world view, apparently, these persons should not resort to the use of a firearm to stave off a rapist or killer. Perhaps you think the woman or older man who was stomped to death by a pack of thugs because he could not fight them off (disparity of force) has (had) a better grasp of the law and criminal justice system then the one who decided to survive. Interesting. A perfectly healthy normal sized male can be in danger of life and limb with multiple attackers. A compromised person gets to that point much quicker.

I, in fact, can give you several examples of deadly force being applied against an unarmed assailant very successfully with no charges. Not "I suspect" or "probably".

My suggestion to you sir, before you go around flying off the handle at folks and start flinging insults, is to gain some subject matter knowledge. There is really no downside.

In some areas any use of a firearm for self defense will be examined much more closely than others, I am fully aware of that. In no area or jurisdiction on this earth am I going let any member of my family to include myself, lose life or limb even from an unarmed person, even if I have to use the last resort of a firearm. I would sure rather run, flee, or whatever prior to that.
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Old January 12, 2011, 10:04 AM   #61
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Like others have said, go through steps, not only to try to avoid a physical assault, but to satisfy legal requirements. Try to get away. If you can't, warn him verbally to stop. Draw your weapon, but don't point it at him, and tell him to stop. If he keeps coming, point it at him. You get the picture. In other words, if it comes down to legal prosecution, it should appear that you did absolutely EVERYTHING humanly possible to avoid escalation, step by step.

Beyond that, of course as always, it depends on the situation, your firearm, the state you live in, and your ability to shoot instinctively with speed and accuracy. In the situation described, I personally, if my back were to the wall, would take out his knee with a .357 158 gr. hollow point. If he didn't appear to be a hard criminal, just some jerk who drank too much, I'd shoot his foot. That may or may not work for you, again depending. The important thing is that you're seriously examining the concept and thinking about what you're doing, and not just blundering around like some armchair Rambo wannabe. You're doing fine.
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Old January 12, 2011, 02:33 PM   #62
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FLA jogger shot a guy attacked him, he is found to be not guilty

Quote:
A pistol-packing jogger in Florida won't be charged for shooting and killing a teenager who attacked him during a midnight run.

Prosecutors said Tuesday they are convinced Thomas Baker acted in self defense when he fired eight shots at 18-year-old Carlos Mustelier near Tampa in November .
Know your local laws.
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Old January 12, 2011, 02:57 PM   #63
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He wasn't found not guilty, he was not charged. A significant difference. He was not charged, properly, because the FL law justifying the shooter's actions are very friendly toward the victim/perceived victim of an assault. Lets hope that spirit catches on coast to coast.
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Old January 12, 2011, 05:32 PM   #64
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he was not charged
Even better, no legal fees to consider.
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Old January 12, 2011, 05:40 PM   #65
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perfect example of some stupid kid thinking he has an easy target only to find out that some people do carry for preventative measures. It is sad to see a teenager die, but the person was just trying to get some exercise in and then successfully defended himself.
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Old January 12, 2011, 06:47 PM   #66
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USCTrojanSigFan

As a resident of Southern California (I work in El Monte, on the East side of Los Angeles), I have studied the California law for use of deadly force. Nowhere in the law does it require that the assailant be armed. The law only requires that a reasonable person in the same situation would fear for their life or fear great bodily harm.

Defense against rape is specifically called out as a situation that allows the legal use of deadly force.

California law also allows you to use deadly force in defense of other innocent persons if a reasonable person would consider them in fear of loss life or great bodily harm. Be careful, deadly force is not allowed to chase people off of your property although force can be used to eject a person from your property.

Most “Self Defense” claims for cases that go to trial fail the test of a reasonable person in the same situation fearing loss of life or great bodily harm. Of the many cases I have seen over the years, many murderers claim self defense only to have the premeditation of their killing proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Additionally, stop reading the LA Times and USC newspapers. These are (IMHO) famously anti-gun and rarely report anything that would cast a positive light on gun ownership and carry.

Finally, as you are aware, it is virtually impossible to get a CCW in LA County or any of the surrounding counties, so you are in serious legal trouble if you use a gun in self defense and did not have a permit to carry. In fact, most DA’s would use this to prove premeditation and thus murder, not self defense.
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Old January 12, 2011, 07:35 PM   #67
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If you read through all of the post so far it becomes clear that legally justifying the shooting of an unarmed individual involves many factors. According to self-defense legal expert Mitch Vilos shooting an unarmed individual is one of the "thumbs down" factors that coupled together with other issues can land you in prison for a long time.

Having said this there are scenarios where it would be justified BUT anytime the word "reasonable", as judged by twelve of your peers, is used as a qualifier for justified use of deadly force there are no guarantees.

If you make the decision to arm yourself and a situation arises it becomes very important that you go to the extreme to deescalate the situation. Claiming fear that the individual might disarm you may not carry much weight and the fact that you're armed, via some twisted logical, can be viewed as your having put yourself in jeopardy.

In some states drawing your weapon as a warning to a potential attacker is legal but in many states you'll be facing a brandishing charge and possibly the loss of your license. Personally I don't agree with the laws that say you only draw your weapon with the intention of immediately using it but it is what it is.

Of course having empty hand skills and carrying a non-lethal form of self-defense equipment (pepper spray or taser if it is legal in your area) are possible options. The fact that you're asking these questions is a good since anyone that makes the decision to carry a firearm needs to give some thought to the force continuum and the justified level of force for various situations.
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Old January 12, 2011, 07:40 PM   #68
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well edge you said it: "Fear" - that is a major factor. If you wake up in the middle of the night and shoot someone in your bedroom, did you have a reasonable fear for yourself and your family: unarmed or not(just no back shots).

one man took out four muggers, but hsi mistake was to explain to the cops that he was never in fear for his life one bit. I appreciate this man's honesty and grit, but that was a bad choice of words that can make things more difficult in the aftermath.
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