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Old June 5, 2019, 10:27 AM   #51
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Everything is situational. one priority should be to put as many barriers between yourself and the threat as possible to delay them until police arrive. Thats why locking the door if practical is a good idea.

Sure.. in a general sense I agree 100% but in this particular situation I think it would have been the wrong thing to do. The main priority is to survive.

If you are armed and have decent cover, that's a good thing. If the badguy has to traverse an open area to get to you or to get a shot... you have the advantage. If you happen to meet him in the middle of that open expanse as you are trying to secure a very minimalistic locking mechanism.. that's bad. Locking a [glass] door which is secured by a small courtesy set ( as most are), is not worth the risk. What if he or his accomplices come in the back door and utilize the cover you abandoned and then use it to attack you standing in the open. The smart thing would be to 1. get a 911 call for help. 2. Reload or at least remain behind cover ( watch each others backs) and prepared to continue defending. 3. Retreat to a more secure office or area which can be more easily defended. In this specific circumstance I would have said "heck with the front door."


Think about what you are calling a door or a barrier.. its likely a sheet of glass with a small courtesy set. Its more of an imagined barrier than a true barrier. If locking it is FREE.. sure, lock it. If a guy with a shotgun might come back through it at any second or might be standing 5 feet from it.. nope, I am staying put.

Mantras and checklists are great to reflect on but they do not rule the day in every conceivable situation. If you understand the spirit of the training you have received or the spirit of whatever "priorities" you cling to, then you can apply that understanding to construct an appropriate course of action which is unique to your specific circumstance.
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Old June 5, 2019, 10:32 AM   #52
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Well, from the very limited angle that we can see.. it sort of appears that way.

BUT!..The fact that he immediately came back could suggest that he wasnt breaking off the attack.. just working another angle. We also don't know if he was still pointing the gun at them or not. A person turning their back might be trying to flee and they might be trying to get to cover so that they can continue attacking you. To fairly judge, we need more information.
I agree, not enought video footage to tell... It was just the only thing that stood out to me though and begged the question if its reasonable to continue the lethal force defense if there is a temporary break in the immenence of the situation?
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Old June 5, 2019, 10:52 AM   #53
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I agree, not enought video footage to tell... It was just the only thing that stood out to me though and begged the question if its reasonable to continue the lethal force defense if there is a temporary break in the immenence of the situation?

yeah me too. I half expected to see granny running out the door after him. I was glad she didn't. In fairness, its hard to tell but its an important observation on your part.
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Old June 5, 2019, 11:10 AM   #54
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Well, from the very limited angle that we can see.. it sort of appears that way.



BUT!..The fact that he immediately came back could suggest that he wasnt breaking off the attack.. just working another angle. We also don't know if he was still pointing the gun at them or not. A person turning their back might be trying to flee and they might be trying to get to cover so that they can continue attacking you. To fairly judge, we need more information.
As I asked in another thread, what's the difference between retreating and moving to cover? If someone is moving to cover to try to gain a tactical advantage, am I not supposed to engage simply because that person is moving away from me? I think the notion of not chasing the adversary or attacking a fleeing opponent is well and good, but it's not always easy to determine and it surely isn't easy during the moment. And this question comes up often in police shootings.

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Old June 5, 2019, 11:15 AM   #55
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If someone is moving to cover to try to gain a tactical advantage, am I not supposed to engage simply because that person is moving away from me?

that's not what I am saying. I was suggesting that in my mind those two things are different. fleeing is one thing.. efforts to continue the fight is something else entirely.
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Old June 5, 2019, 11:16 AM   #56
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It's a hypothetical question illustrating the difficulties of the situation. I was agreeing with you...

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Old June 5, 2019, 11:30 AM   #57
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Personally I think her actions were justified but ONLY because the guy came back. There is an important distinction to make here, she got lucky he did just that.....
There was a breif lull in the imminence of the situation, werent there comments made even here suggested she could have locked the door?

The big takeaway I see from this is mental training to somehow keep your cool under stress. Not certain how to train for that but imminence is a requirement for self defense at all times, as I understand it.
What if the bad guy had enough and really wasnt coming back and that shot she fired killed him?
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Old June 5, 2019, 12:42 PM   #58
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In training, a person can at least take steps eliminate the mental clutter and confusion which are normally associated with this kind of event. You have minimize the clutter through scenario development and physically carrying out these actions in a training environment. If you go through the analytical issues now, its much easier to make complex decisions in the future. One huge hurdle is for a person to come to terms with exactly what they are willing to do in regards to defending themselves in any given situation. Really come to terms with it. Moral, mental, spiritual, legal, ethical conflicts which arise in the moment can be devastating to your ability to take decisive action. Harmony comes when what you [say], what you[ think] and what you [do] all align honestly with your warrior spirit.

coolness under this type of pressure is usually a byproduct of being subjected to similar levels of mental stress (involving danger) over a period of time. It a form of desensitization which can occur sooner in some people, later in other and some do not develop it at all. There are also people who have been known to lose steely nerve after meeting some sort of breaking point.

Regarding desensitization..Police Officers develop this, soldiers, corrections officers and other protective service people who deal in physical dangers regularly. There are some unique physiologies which may exhibit a natural coolness under pressure of unusual lack of stress responses but those are few and far between. Citizens who develop this sort of desensitization are often those who have lived in rough neighborhoods where the threat of violence is a realistic (every day) occurrence.
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Old June 5, 2019, 12:56 PM   #59
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Sure.. in a general sense I agree 100% but in this particular situation I think it would have been the wrong thing to do. The main priority is to survive.

If you are armed and have decent cover, that's a good thing. If the badguy has to traverse an open area to get to you or to get a shot... you have the advantage. If you happen to meet him in the middle of that open expanse as you are trying to secure a very minimalistic locking mechanism.. that's bad. Locking a [glass] door which is secured by a small courtesy set ( as most are), is not worth the risk. What if he or his accomplices come in the back door and utilize the cover you abandoned and then use it to attack you standing in the open. The smart thing would be to 1. get a 911 call for help. 2. Reload or at least remain behind cover ( watch each others backs) and prepared to continue defending. 3. Retreat to a more secure office or area which can be more easily defended. In this specific circumstance I would have said "heck with the front door."


Think about what you are calling a door or a barrier.. its likely a sheet of glass with a small courtesy set. Its more of an imagined barrier than a true barrier. If locking it is FREE.. sure, lock it. If a guy with a shotgun might come back through it at any second or might be standing 5 feet from it.. nope, I am staying put.

Mantras and checklists are great to reflect on but they do not rule the day in every conceivable situation. If you understand the spirit of the training you have received or the spirit of whatever "priorities" you cling to, then you can apply that understanding to construct an appropriate course of action which is unique to your specific circumstance.
Thats why I said "if practical." You're trying to buy time for the police to get there.

The other advice I would note is "learn how to do a Bill Drill." I will it at that.
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Old June 5, 2019, 02:07 PM   #60
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What if the bad guy had enough and really wasnt coming back and that shot she fired killed him?
And what if she did kill him? Let's run this down because I think there's something worth noting here. I've talked with trainers that were police officers that have emphasized to me the importance of having a narrative were I to be brought in front of a jury. This man entered the store, threatened her with a firearm (a felony in some states by itself), robbed said store, came back after the women had complied, and closed on her and her daughter, and then when the woman shot him he fought them, struck them, stole a firearm from them, and attempted to discharge said firearm at them with the likely possibility of causing a mortal wound.

If this man had left the store and the mother or daughter had chased the man outside and continued to fire, I see that as one thing. If they fire a shot at a person that as far as we know was still a threat as he was moving, making use of the time the distance to their assailant had given them, would said woman be guilty of a crime? That I can't answer, both as a cause of not knowing the laws of her state nor being a lawyer myself. Were I a jury member on that case and the woman was being tried for a crime in my state, I wouldn't vote to convict her under those circumstances knowing the laws of my state as I do and my own evaluation of the situation.

I have no desire to harm anyone, nor any desire to end up in jail. At some level when someone is attempting to end your life, as was the case by the end of this video, how much can we reasonably expect a person to pause and evaluate the exact actions of their assailant, step by step? FireForged made mention of the desensitization of police officers, soldiers, corrections officers, etc. But there are also examples of people from all of those professions that have been brought to trial because of questions with regards to use of force.

Does that mean I think threat assessment should go out the window once a fight has started? Not at all. My point is humans are emotion driven by nature, and while I see areas where these women could have done "better", truly empathizing with someone in such a situation and being able to clearly understand their threat evaluation is not an easy thing and some leeway has to be allowed. Police officers brought to trial for use of force are cleared far more than convicted. I believe that is in part due to the notions I expressed here.
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Old June 5, 2019, 02:37 PM   #61
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It all boils down to evidence. That evidence will be reviewed, considered, examined and judged by imperfect people.

evidence matters, open minded police matter, fair minded DA's matter, reasonably intelligent jurors matter, honest media matters, good witnesses matter, A judge skilled in the law- matters, a good defense attorney- matters, having a reputation for truthfulness matters, being able to articulately convey crucial facts in oral interviews and in written form- matters, having not been the primary aggressor and having not provoked or caused the difficulty- matters.
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Old June 5, 2019, 02:39 PM   #62
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Agreed, and part of my point. If we approach this from the standpoint of everyone being unreasonable, dishonest, and everything arranged against you then there is no possible "good shoot". Everyone in the process matters, including ourselves as witnesses and potential members of juries in other cases. You have to have some level of faith in the system because some of it is out of your control. If a person can't accept that then he or she should rethink carrying a firearm.

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Old June 5, 2019, 08:55 PM   #63
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Speaking of evidence, I'll just point out that the security video we've seen has been edited into clips that don't show the entire sequence of events. I played it back at 25% speed, and I didn't see the bad guy go out through the door and then come back in. Unless a viewing of the complete, uniterrupted, unedited video shows me something to the contrary, I'm of the opinion that he was still a threat when the mother fired on his.

A couple of people have suggested staying behind cover. Serious question: WHAT cover? That flimsy counter the women were behind? That probably would stop a pellet from a BB gun. That might be "concealment," but it's not "cover." There is a difference.
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Old June 5, 2019, 09:58 PM   #64
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we don't know what it is made out of
we don't know what year or decade it was built
we don't know if it was premade or built on site
we don't know what items are contained within the counter
we don't know what the shotgun was loaded with
we don't know what items are displayed in front of the counter
we don't know what material or items might be affixed to the front of the counter

All that being said, I am not sure how someone comes to a merited conclusion about the quality of cover based on just the video. I don't think you can

for this discussion lets deem this a cheap prefab unit even though it is probably vintage and of better construction

many of these cheap type of cashier counters are 3 layers of plywood (front), HD laminate covering over wood, melamine foam insulated with a stainless steel kicker panel.

Its fair to assume that there are all manner of paper products, cleaners, cleaning supplies, phone book, binders, water bottles, a bucket, a bag of safety granules, a fire extinguisher, a radio, flashlight, gas can, overstock of cigarette cartons, roll of trash bags, a hammer, a first aid kit under the counter. I also assume that there is a metal cash drawer, conduit, electrical components and electrical outlets likely in metal retaining box and metal conduit.

It may not stop all manner of projectiles and certainly not rifle rounds but it would probably stop quite a bit of a shotgun blast and smaller handguns commonly used by robbers. It should also offer some deflection as well as slowing down the projectiles. If you notice in the video, the badguy reaches over the counter trying to shoot at them .. he didn't just try to shoot through the barrier. In addition to whatever cover it may offer it is also mental barrier as I just mentioned

If someone wants to suggest that it probably wouldn't stop a BB gun, please feel free to qualify that belief. You may be 100% correct but I am curious as to the basis of that belief.
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Old June 6, 2019, 07:22 AM   #65
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Serious question: WHAT cover?

Based on what I see in this very brief video and associated clips from varying news outlets showing the inside and outside of the the store, it looks old and unrenovated.

The appearance of the counter seems to be of thick butcher block top, 2x4 framing , 1x8 or 1x10 shelving and sides panels. I cant see the front but even the cheap fab units are commonly several sheets of plywood for the front. It is presumably filled with all sorts of utility supplies w which I indicated in my previous post and is flanked by wire racks. The unit looks like something that commonly would have been built on site using readily available building materials.


Depending on what projectile we are talking about and fired from what cal weapon and depending on what angle.. This type of counter might offer reasonable cover from the weapons we see in this video but we cannot know without more information. Would I have used it as cover?.. yep. Do I stand by the suggestion that staying behind the counter is a much better idea than walking up to the front door?.. yep.
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Old June 6, 2019, 03:05 PM   #66
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Really? REALLY?
Y'All can get in a big whizzing ego contest about the construction material used at the checkout counter?

This is worse than CNN. "And IF its TRUE!!…...then a 2000 word essay.

You might check to see if the National Enquirer is hiring.

No one used the counter to stop bullets.Its a moot point.Whether the checkout counter was Masonite or AR plate is irrelevant.

I do not think anyone was particularly calculating their courtroom strategy for self defense.They were fighting for their lives against a thug armed with a sawed off shotgun.

In those few seconds of terror and chaos ,no one is using rational,analytical thought. They are n a primal place.

When I had my Alaska bear incident,I was in a tiny two hoop ,4 lb Moss backpacking tent.My Wife woke me up by saying "Don't let the bear bite me again" I zipped the tent door open and he stuck his head in.


I cannot make a single rational argument to support the fact that I tapped him across the face with my shotgun. No doubt some GENIUS will tell me I should have shot him...and no doubt they can write 3000 words about it.


So what? It does not matter. The bear temporarily backed up. He's dead. I'm not.
Hindsight is 20/20 in slow motion with retakes.


To me,the point was in chaos,when things were not going right,They got it done...


Its interesting.Today is June 6th. D-Day. The ramp is lowering on your landing craft. A german machine gun is hosing the boat. People are falling.

Everything is going wrong. You make it to the beach.Everything s still going wrong.

Just like these women,you kept shooting. Maybe not very well,but you made it off the beach.


If I was making bets,I'd have bet on the thug with the shotgun killing two women.

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Old June 6, 2019, 03:11 PM   #67
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I'm confused. What does the bear have to do with this?

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Old June 6, 2019, 03:25 PM   #68
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Its my real life experience with waking up to a real life threatening experience with chaos .Bouncing my shotgun off his face seems stupid in hindsight.
I "woulda/coulda/shouda shot him in the head with a 12 ga slug from 10 inches.

I didn't.Chaos does not analyze very well
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Old June 6, 2019, 03:26 PM   #69
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Y'All can get in a big whizzing ego contest about the construction material used at the checkout counter?

Its not a contest, I was simply qualifying my belief that using it as cover was an option. If someone wants to disagree, fine. I will at least offer my thoughts within proper perspective. The point is to foster fruitful discussion not win a ego contest. In essence, I want the other person to know where I am coming from so that they can better form their agreement or disagreement.

It doesn't really help the discussion to simply say... nu-UH.


Quote:
No one used the counter to stop bullets.Its a moot point.Whether the checkout counter was Masonite or AR plate is irrelevant
then you have missed the point of the discussion.

Quote:
I do not think anyone was particularly calculating their courtroom strategy for self defense.They were fighting for their lives against a thug armed with a sawed off shotgun.

sure... in the moment is not a good time to do that. Its better to hash those type of issues in training, scenario development and [discussion] before bad a person is thrust into a fast moving crisis. Things like how to qualify jeopardy and how to properly measure force and how to mitigate risk during your response are all things that you can hash out in discussions like we have here. Its not really calculating courtroom strategy but more of a helpful learned protocol.
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Old June 6, 2019, 03:32 PM   #70
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I'm confused. What does the bear have to do with this?

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More importantly is the bear armed? We support the right to bear arms around here.
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Old June 6, 2019, 03:43 PM   #71
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Wow, you even threw in a D Day reference. Nice imagery.

I think people know chaos is a thing. Again, it doesn't mean you can't analyze a situation. Had no one on Omaha (man we've really traveled through time and space from that store) realized they needed to make an exit then more people would have died. Fear is natural. Making mistakes is natural. You still need some presence of mind to survive.

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Old June 6, 2019, 03:53 PM   #72
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Couple rationalizations to dismiss relevancy (lesson) of video that I've seen before:
-I don't work in a liquor store
-My shot placement with a P32 under stress would be like John Wick (generalization)
The it won't happen to me/here rationalizations always focus on how that incident doesn't apply to them.
Rather than say, "Wow, there was an attacker that didn't quit even after being shot several times and it was in the daytime"
Nah, rationalizers post something along the line of: I feel protected with my P32/P3AT unchambered in a pocket with my soiled hankerchief, I could draw and rack it after a lethal attack starts, six shots is plenty, its all about shot placement, criminals run away when the shooting starts, I'm in a "good" area, I only go to the Tack & Feed at 10AM so if a robbery happened at the Tack & Feed at 7 PM ... it don't apply to me.....
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Old June 6, 2019, 04:09 PM   #73
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Nah, rationalizers post something along the line of: I feel protected with my P32/P3AT unchambered in a pocket with my soiled hankerchief, I could draw and rack it after a lethal attack starts, six shots is plenty, its all about shot placement, criminals run away when the shooting starts, I'm in a "good" area, I only go to the Tack & Feed at 10AM so if a robbery happened at the Tack & Feed at 7 PM ... it don't apply to me....
In fairness to the rationalization argument I would offer the counter argument that the custom 10MM, 120 rounds of ammunition and back-up .357 revolver do not guarantee safety either.

We might both be dealing in a bit of hyperbole but I think the idea of the argument, to either end, stands.
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Old June 6, 2019, 07:28 PM   #74
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I'm glad that the ladies survived the ordeal and that the robber got shot and arrested. It could have gone very badly for the two ladies. I think we need to give the mom some credit when she made sure to empty the revolver once she felt the robber was going to take it from them. I think that is what kept the daughter from getting shot. Based on the size of the revolver, it was probably a .38 special. I'm not sure what kind of ammo, but it clearly shows that no one should expect one stop shots.

The daughter could have easily hit the mom when she shot the robber in the back. Over-penetration was very possible as well as just a missed shot from the mom and robber struggling for the gun. It makes me think about the time where we did a hostage/hostage taker scenario with our practical shooting club. I did not have enough angle and ended up shooting through the hostage taker and hitting the hostage.

I think my biggest take away is to fire a few rounds in succession rather than firing one round and watching for the reaction.
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Old June 17, 2019, 02:06 AM   #75
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My opinion is the women survived, and it's easy to Monday morning quarterback the event.
I see a case where private citizens fought back with privately owned guns and prevailed despite more then likely not much training, and what looked like low powered mouse guns, and and some pretty good luck.

They made some quick decisions in a few seconds, and survived.

lessons I see that we could take away:
1. If you are going to resist, be decisive, shoot and keep shooting, till the threat is down or gone.
2. Sometimes concealment and hopefully cover can and should be utilized.
3. For defense in a store like that, a 9mm for off body location, should probably be the min. Personally, I want a 40cal or bigger.

4. And finally, when the ball drops, the outcome is never guaranteed, and whatever one might plan or visualize, It will probably go down differently.
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