The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 5, 2019, 06:35 AM   #26
Mobuck
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,847
The "best"? Determined by what?
The number of notches on their pistol, the number of gunfights participated in, total shots fired in anger?
I've talked to a couple of "trainers" and after only a couple of minutes, it was crystal clear that they had far less experience than I. Teaching tuck and roll or dance step shooting doesn't mean anything other that those "schools/classes/training" know how to extract $$ from suckers. All that choreographed gun range stuff is just that "stuff" in my book.
For a totally inexperienced shooter more basic instruction is needed just to prevent them from shooting themselves accidentally. A real novice isn't gong to learn enough in a couple of days of blasting to face a determined aggressor.
Mobuck is offline  
Old April 5, 2019, 12:28 PM   #27
1-DAB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2010
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 473
from those who have attended these various classes and learned from assorted instructors, it would be interesting to know what skills were taught by each.

not skills you already knew, but new skills, or correcting skills you were doing wrong.
1-DAB is offline  
Old April 5, 2019, 12:42 PM   #28
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobuck View Post
The "best"? Determined by what?
The number of notches on their pistol, the number of gunfights participated in, total shots fired in anger?
I've talked to a couple of "trainers" and after only a couple of minutes, it was crystal clear that they had far less experience than I. Teaching tuck and roll or dance step shooting doesn't mean anything other that those "schools/classes/training" know how to extract $$ from suckers. All that choreographed gun range stuff is just that "stuff" in my book.
For a totally inexperienced shooter more basic instruction is needed just to prevent them from shooting themselves accidentally. A real novice isn't gong to learn enough in a couple of days of blasting to face a determined aggressor.
Then you talked to some poor instructors or are underselling your own abilities.

The goal is instruction over time. The course should be planned based on the assumed experience level of the attendee, which should be communicated beforehand. Obviously someone completely new to firearms benefits from the practice of more basic skills first, but the point isn't one and done. When we learn to play a sport or drive a car we don't go for one lesson and then just stop. The same logic applies here.

As for "the best", on that I slightly agree. Decades of war and many more decades of law enforcement have produced a number of people with both weapon manipulation and threat assessment abilities. Some are more well known than others due to a combination of factors. Does that make the more well known universally better? Maybe, maybe not. I've had instructors that were skilled themselves but not necessarily great at instruction, and vice versa. It's a balance. The experience of the instructor does lend credibility and hopefully add to the material in the course, but it may not be the only factor worth considering.

There are also charlatans in the self defense industry, as there were even before firearms existed.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old April 6, 2019, 02:52 AM   #29
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,603
When my Wife and I became members of our local Sheriffs Dept. Volunteer Group. We had only been in the Country for a few months.

My idea was we would be dealing with American Citizens (which we were not yet) and Instructors, the majority, who had spent most, if not all their lives, in the US of A. A multi-faceted learning curve. And for free!

I had a CCW in Florida, prior to moving into Florida, and was a Professional, self-employed Firearms Instructor for over 25 years. Based out of Toronto Ontario, Canada.

I was born in Liverpool UK, Oct 1935. And spent from 1960 till 1965 as Bouncer (Doorman, posh term) in Local Clubs, 1960 till 1964 at the Cavern Club, of Beatles fame, even tho it was a kids venue. (15 to 18?)
I managed to get stabbed twice and was in countless fist (or whatever!) fights.

Whilst it is very important to use firearms safely, skillfully, and lots of rounds fired, hopefully, some time spent with good Instructors in that field.
Fighting period is a great skill to acquire.IMHO.

In order to acquire an official ID, as a Volunteer, you had to sit through an interview with a Deputy, the same individual, interviewed prospective Sherrif employees for full-time positions with the Sheriffs Dept.

My first eye opener as a prospective American Citizen (that happened in 2011) and my upbringing in Liverpool.

After been asked, twenty different ways, when I had last smoked Pot! And emphatically denied smoking anything, Cigs/pipe, or any form of narcotic, he got the message. I had never smoked, ever. Nice young babyfaced Officer.

The next three questions, with yes answers! Set the cat amongst the Pigeons, so to speak.

Have you ever been in a fight, as an adult?

""""""""""""""""" used weapons in a fight?

"""""""""""""""''' been in a fight where people have been killed, or seriously Injured?

The look on his face seemed to be telling Dorothy, from the Movie, the Wizard of Oz, you are not in Kansas any longer!

I did get my ID.

My Gen 4 Glock 19 is sitting behind me. Do not all Florida adults own a gun?

Last edited by Brit; April 6, 2019 at 03:04 AM.
Brit is offline  
Old April 6, 2019, 06:54 AM   #30
Mobuck
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,847
"Then you talked to some poor instructors or are underselling your own abilities."

Obviously, these "instructors" weren't much good and I'm not "selling" anything.
If I related my experience(s), it wouldn't be acceptable or not believed. I will say that a SD scenario wouldn't be my first but the others took place in a "free fire zone".
Mobuck is offline  
Old April 6, 2019, 09:36 AM   #31
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 20,422
Everybody is at a different level of proficiency. What may be the best for one student is too slow for another and conversely, too advanced for a third student. I've been learning since '84 (PoPo academy) and don't consider myself anything than an advanced student. That is to say, even with law enforcement instructor schools and NRA instructor ratings behind me, I'm no beginner but there is still much to learn and a lot to practice.

Last week I learned how to draw from a purse. Why? Because I might have to instruct a woman how to do it. That's a buncha stuff I never even considered in my younger days.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old April 8, 2019, 02:57 AM   #32
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,603
A good friend retired from a senior Government position in Florida, nice guy.

His Wife carried in her purse. This purse was an expensive one, so as not to mar the silk inside, her very lightweight S&W .22 Revolver inside of a zip fastened little separate purse.

The two Ladies were up-stairs looking at something or other, my buddy and I sipping a draft beer, on tap! On the counter his Wifes Gutchi? Bag.

As we had been talking about her method of carrying, he unzipped the bag and took out the little zipped pouch.

The Zip had seized! I had to cut it open. Don't know how it is carried now.
Brit is offline  
Old April 8, 2019, 07:58 AM   #33
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 20,422
Friend's wife doesn't have the right mindset. Mindset should be addressed by the instructor.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old April 8, 2019, 01:56 PM   #34
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 857
Quote:
Got to disagree with much that T O'Heir stated. (It's a trend)
-LE and military training is often different than civilian training, but there is significant overlap. LE and civilian cues for impending trouble are similar, because it is about dealing with people. The basic skill sets of identifying threats, safely shooting, diagnosing malfunctions, moving, and communicating are all quite similar. Sure some skills are not likely to be used in a civilian context (multi-team building clearing, etc), but many fundamentals of both shooting and dealing with dangerous situations are common among civilian CCW, LE, and military.

Good training courses teach sound fundamentals, whether they be marksmanship, threat identification, grappling, medical skills, etc. Where they help advance their students is by providing a logical structure for thinking and learning and an outside perspective to fix mistakes and set proper training goals. One instructor (I think Paul Howe) said something to the effect of "There is no such thing as advanced shooting, only applying the fundamentals at an advanced level.". If a course helps that, then it's probably worth looking at.

...I'm a military member whose primary assigned firearm is a pistol. So, T, please stop making definitive assertions on topics you have only partial knowledge of.
Good Post

Quote:
Live training with immediate feedback is better than a book IMHO.
Absolutely. You cannot read a book and develop muscle memory. If you want to improve at the fastest rate possible, you need a good knowledgeable instructor watching as well as coaching. Every time I go to the range, I learn something especially when someone knowledgeable is casting a critical eye upon me.

Quote:
Gunsite in Arizona or Thunder Ranch
Been to both as well as several other contractor type shooting courses...All had good experiences and great instruction. That does not mean either had the absolute knowledge and definitive techniques. None of them were the "be all, end all".

Same with all the LEO organizations and shooting training I have participated/conducted. Learned something from every one and NONE of them were the be all end all.

I will say this....the top shooters in the United States inventory all use the same basic techniques and there is a reason for that. Think of that as the foundation...get those techniques/training down and you have a solid platform to build upon should you ever have to be in a gunfight.
davidsog is offline  
Old April 17, 2019, 06:30 PM   #35
Josh_Putman
Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 19
Any of you trained with John "Shrek" McPhee? Former SGM in The Unit. Runs a Facebook group called Gunfighter University.

Sent from my LG-SP200 using Tapatalk
Josh_Putman is offline  
Old April 17, 2019, 08:31 PM   #36
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 12,251
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotonGuy
So, I think that if people are going to carry and use guns for self defense they need training from the very best. We need to stop having mediocre gun users if we want to fight for our cause of guns in the hands of good people being effective in stopping bad people. There has been some debate over this in this other thread I started about the New Zealand shooting. Aside from the gun control crowd, I think one of the biggest enemies of us gun rights advocates is ourselves when we fail to get the best training we can get.
I don't think anyone here or on most other "gun" forums would argue that training is a bad thing. Were I have reservations about your position is that we are talking about a fundamental, Constitutionally guaranteed right. There is nothing in the Second Amendment about the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed IF YOU HAVE THE MINIMUM LEVEL OF TRAINING THAT ___ THINKS IS GOOD ENOUGH.

You ended by saying something about "the best training we can get." You recommend Front Sight. Without delving into the many complaints about Front Sight, let's use them as an example. If you are in a position to take classes there, good for you. What about the single mother living in an inner city neighborhood, working one or two jobs to feed her kids and put clothes on their backs? Let's omit Front Sight's basic, one-day, 30-state permit course. The next level is a two-day Defensive Handgun class. The cost for the class is $1,000. They want you to bring a minimum of 200 rounds of ammunition. In round numbers, that's another $50. Front Sight is located in Pahrump, Nevada. Unless you live in or near Las Vegas, a class at Front Sight will require travel to and from Nevada and a minimum of three nights in a hotel, plus meals.

In round numbers, we're probably looking at roughly $2,000. And that's just for their basic-level, two-day class. Not everyone can afford to spend $2,000 (or more) just so they can exercise a fundamental right that's guaranteed by the Constitution.

Don't get me wrong. I think training is good. Good training is better, and more good training is better yet. BUT ... if anyone starts making noises about requiring some minimum level of training before we should be allowed to exercise our constitutional right to keep and bear arms -- that's where that person and I are going to part company.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 17, 2019, 08:35 PM   #37
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,492
I agree with Blanca on this. I've done a lot of training because I had the time and money to do so. Many don't. Training requirements can become a form of income discrimination. Sure it sounds "reasonable" to those of us with the time and money, but that doesn't help those that don't have those luxuries.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old April 17, 2019, 10:26 PM   #38
K_Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,849
I also agree that good training is valuable and I am an advocate for getting the best available within one's means. That does not mean I am in favor of mandatory training that goes beyond fundamental safety and proficiency.

PhotonGuy the lack of superbly trained armed citizens is not the biggest threat to our Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. The bigger threat is the many who believe those rights do not apply to regular folks. A favorite tactic of antigun zealots is to make the requirements for carrying a gun so restrictive it is impossible for regular people. I will define regular people as those who are limited in their resources and don't have access to power: the majority of us. It is impossible to ignore the truth that those with the least are at the greatest risk of needing a firearm for personal protection. Mandating extensive training does not make us safer or improve our credibility with antigun people. It puts all of us at greater risk, especially those at the bottom of the socioeconomic spectrum.

Arbitrarily defined mediocrity does not, and should not effect ones constitutional rights to keep and Bear arms. I'm far more afraid of antigun zealots than I am of someone who isn't current with his gunfighter merit badges.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin
K_Mac is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.07151 seconds with 8 queries