The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Curios and Relics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 16, 2019, 12:37 AM   #1
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,431
Old .38ACP Peters ammo

I ended up with these 6 rounds of Peters .38ACP ammunition.

The bullets look like they are steel-jacketed, but they do not attract a magnet. They appear to be copper-jacketed bullets with either zinc or tin plating over the copper jacket.

The headstamp is PETERS .38 A.C.P.

I would be interested to know when these were made although that might be a tall order. Peters was bought out by Remington in the mid 1930s, but they continued to use the name for some time. However, the .38ACP wasn't a common round--maybe that combined with the headstamp might provide some clues.

Attached Images
File Type: jpeg Peters_Cartridges.jpeg (217.5 KB, 349 views)
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old February 16, 2019, 02:22 AM   #2
10-96
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2005
Location: Tx Panhandle Territory
Posts: 3,840
You find the neatest stuff to ponder.

I'm just going off of vague memories here, but if we knew whether those were cupronickel or tin washed copper- that could help narrow things down a bit. Cupronickel was being phased out by the early 20's in pistol ammo. That cannelure in the case should have gone to the knurled look or gone by the med 30's when the .38 Super came into it's own.

Not much help, huh?
__________________
Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day)

I'm going to use the words "clip" and "Long Colt" every chance I get. It grinds my gears to see new members attacked when we all know dang good and well what's being refered to.
10-96 is offline  
Old February 16, 2019, 12:23 PM   #3
Tidewater_Kid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2005
Location: Alabama
Posts: 883
I would suggest asking your question here:
http://cartridgecollectors.org/

It's an unusual cartridge for sure.
Tidewater_Kid is offline  
Old February 16, 2019, 04:10 PM   #4
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,431
Quote:
...whether those were cupronickel or tin washed copper...
Pretty sure that the silver color is a plating/coating. There is evidence in a few spots where the silver-colored plating has worn off/oxidized away that what's underneath is some kind of copper or gilding metal. You can see it in the top round in the picture.

This ammo spent some time up in your neck of the woods. The rounds were probably originally owned by a person who lived in Lamesa at one point and who passed away in Lubbock in the 1960s.

These 6 loose rounds were in a package deal that included a full box of Remington conventional copper jacketed .38ACP ammo. That ammo was made in 1961 or 62, based on the printing pattern on the box. I have some reason to believe that the loose rounds could be a lot older than that but no way to prove it.

By the way, I did find another picture of a round that appears to be similar on the Wikipedia page for .38 ACP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_ACP

I may have to give the cartridge collector's forum a try, thanks for the link.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old February 16, 2019, 08:25 PM   #5
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 19,978
Not certain, but I think the silver is the nickel in the cupro-nickel jacket.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 16, 2019, 09:15 PM   #6
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,431
It's some kind of plating/coating. In places it has oxidized/worn off and copper is clearly visible underneath.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old February 16, 2019, 09:50 PM   #7
Bimus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2018
Location: Farmington NM
Posts: 122
I found one 38 ACP by Remington umc that is newer then the peters the bullet looks to be the same.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCN1322.JPG (236.2 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1320.JPG (244.0 KB, 21 views)
Bimus is offline  
Old February 16, 2019, 10:30 PM   #8
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,431
Interesting. It is my understanding that Remington continued selling Peters branded ammo for decades after purchasing them in the 1930s.

The cartridge you picture does not have the cannelure which, based on 10-96's comment might mean that it's much newer.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old February 17, 2019, 12:32 AM   #9
Bimus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2018
Location: Farmington NM
Posts: 122
This photo is from a 1957 Stoeger shooters bible # 48


H.S = high speed
M.C = metal case
O.P = oil proof
O.T = oil tite
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCN1329.JPG (241.3 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1330.JPG (241.6 KB, 19 views)
Bimus is offline  
Old February 17, 2019, 02:22 AM   #10
10-96
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2005
Location: Tx Panhandle Territory
Posts: 3,840
I found a pic of some 1918 dated .45ACP rounds on a search found on Gunboards. They have the same tin washed appearance and cannelure as your .38ACP's.

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...al-projectiles

So, maybe that could hint at an era of 1918 to 1935-ish?
__________________
Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day)

I'm going to use the words "clip" and "Long Colt" every chance I get. It grinds my gears to see new members attacked when we all know dang good and well what's being refered to.
10-96 is offline  
Old February 17, 2019, 04:30 PM   #11
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,431
Quote:
This photo is from a 1957 Stoeger shooters bible # 48
Very interesting how ammo was marketed then. I can't recall buying any modern ammo that claimed to be "Oil Tight".
Quote:
So, maybe that could hint at an era of 1918 to 1935-ish?
The person who likely owned the rounds also owned a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammer in .38 ACP that was manufactured in 1912. So those numbers would certainly make sense. Good info!

I believe that the newer Remington full box of ammo was likely purchased by the second owner of the gun who inherited it in the 1960s while these 6 loose rounds came from the original owner. I was mostly interested to know if the original owner bought it, or if the second owner might have.

Based on what we're seeing here, it seems much more likely that the original owner of the gun purchased these rounds long before the gun changed hands.

I registered on the cartridge collectors website and posted a question there--so far no responses...
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old February 18, 2019, 06:02 PM   #12
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 40,262
"However, the .38ACP wasn't a common round--maybe that combined with the headstamp might provide some clues."

Peters cataloged the .38 ACP cartridge for over 50 years, so yeah, it was common enough.

I found, in a color Peters catalog from the 1920s, a .38 ACP cartridge that looks very much like that.

The 1948 catalog also shows the same style bullet, but it appears that at that time the cases had been nickeled.

The 1952 catalog, though, seems to show a brass case and a copper colored bullet.

Remington purchased Peters in 1934 and continued to manufacture ammunition at Kings Mills, Ohio, as the Peters Cartridge Division.

Boxes were also marked Peters Du Pont. Du Pont had purchased Remington the year before Remington purchased Peters.

The Peters headstamp was used on metallic ammunition until, I believe, the 1960s; the R-P headstamp was also used for many years.


Realistically, there's often no way to narrow down the production year for an individual cartridge.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old February 18, 2019, 06:04 PM   #13
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 40,262
If you want to make a more in depth search of Peters catalogs, you can see many here: http://cartridgecollectors.org/ammun...atalogs/Peters
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old February 18, 2019, 09:29 PM   #14
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,431
I guess what I was trying to get across with the statement about commonality was that the .38ACP wasn't around very long before the guns and the cartridge were made almost obsolete by the .38SUPER.

Thanks for the links to the catalogs. Very interesting resource.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old February 19, 2019, 08:09 AM   #15
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 40,262
"I guess what I was trying to get across with the statement about commonality was that the .38ACP wasn't around very long before the guns and the cartridge were made almost obsolete by the .38SUPER."

Realistically, the .38 Super made the .38 ACP round obsolete in the same way that the .38-44 made the original .38 Special obsolete.

It didn't.

At least not quickly.

After about 1930 guns were no longer chambered specifically for the .38 ACP but there were still more than enough guns chambered for the cartridge in circulation for it to be viable for the ammunition companies for many years.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old February 19, 2019, 08:33 AM   #16
74A95
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Posts: 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
I guess what I was trying to get across with the statement about commonality was that the .38ACP wasn't around very long before the guns and the cartridge were made almost obsolete by the .38SUPER.

Thanks for the links to the catalogs. Very interesting resource.
I guess it depends on how you look at it. The 38 ACP (created in 1900) was around for 30+ years before the 38 Super ammunition came around about 1933. But the old pre-1911 guns were still around and had to be fed something, and the Peters catalog had the 38 ACP listed up to at least 1963.

Winchester had the 38 Auto in their catalog up to at least 1981.

Remington had the 38 Auto in their 1969 catalog. It was not in their 1977 catalog but it reappeared in their 1983 and 1992 catalogs.
74A95 is offline  
Old February 19, 2019, 08:43 AM   #17
74A95
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Posts: 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin View Post

After about 1930 guns were no longer chambered specifically for the .38 ACP but there were still more than enough guns chambered for the cartridge in circulation for it to be viable for the ammunition companies for many years.
Colt introduced the Super 38 Pistol in 1929 (Ad in December 1928 American Rifleman). It was chambered for the 38 Automatic. The pistol was called "Super", the ammo was not and was the same stuff that had been around a while.

Even Colt's 1932 advertisements listed the cartridge for the Super 38 pistol as 38 Automatic, and at the same velocity as the 38 Auto ammo had been at the time - up to 1190 to 1200 fps. Only in 1933 was the ammo referred to as Super, and it boasted a speed of 1300 fps (all with 130 grain bullets.)

Reference:

Sheldon, Douglas G. 1997. Colt's Super .38, The Production History From 1929 Through 1971. Quick Vend, Inc. Willernie, MN.
74A95 is offline  
Old February 19, 2019, 09:34 AM   #18
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 40,262
"Only in 1933 was the ammo referred to as Super, and it boasted a speed of 1300 fps (all with 130 grain bullets.)"

Yep, around 1930.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.07979 seconds with 9 queries