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Old December 9, 2018, 02:38 PM   #51
RC20
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What should be noted is Fish and Game report that 50% of those who used fire arms suffered injury, bear spray, not nearly so much or bad.

Most people do not have a clue how fast bears can move. Cocked, unlocked, loaded and aimed you might get one shot off (depends on how the nerves are doing if it hits)

I do like the one report, a gun is the only lethal response. Hmm, and the goal here is? Kill something or survive to have a good day latter, maybe?

And you do not know even if you are loaded and aimed if you will kill it.

I have seen some evidence that massive trauma from a higher cap magazine be it pistol or semi auto may be effective (so fare 3 out of 3 I know of) - too small a sampling and only one was supposedly threatened though I am skeptical of that.

What we can say, sadly for the mans family, situational awareness was not in play, all parties should have had bear spray, at least one person should have been on guard.
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Old December 9, 2018, 02:42 PM   #52
Don P
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I hope you realized that I am being sarcastic with seat belt comment
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Old December 9, 2018, 06:13 PM   #53
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What should be noted is Fish and Game report that 50% of those who used fire arms suffered injury, bear spray, not nearly so much or bad.
Hmmmm... People using guns in defense were injured about 50% of the time and people who used bear spray escaped injury "most of the time." I am not sure how much their "most" is but most could be as low as 50.1% of the time.
https://above.nasa.gov/safety/docume...vs_bullets.pdf

If you have a better source of data for what the numbers actually are, I would be interested. All I could find is fact sheet #8.

Don't get me wrong here. I am a fan of pepper spray and figure it is a good tool to have. I just want to know what the actual comparative data really are as to deployment for defense.

I haven't purchased bear spray in years, but in the olden days, you had to stop and shake the can before spraying, lest you not actually spray much of the active ingredient. I don't know what spray the guys in the OP had, but if it required shaking before deployment, it would have been much less effective than if it had been properly prepared. https://survivalhax.com/blogs/surviv...-how-to-use-it
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Old December 10, 2018, 10:43 AM   #54
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It's saddening to me how everyone wasn't armed. One guy had a gun, but wasn't armed.

They should have all had Glock 20s, chambered, spare mags, and with hot ammo. Most of all, the knowledge on how to properly use them.

Such a shame and what a way to go out. :/ I really think this didn't have to end as tragically as it did.

I have been chased about 3 times by wild boar here in Florida while out hunting. 2 times I had to kill them with a SIG P220 and 1 time I used a Glock 19 with Buffalo Bore +P+ along with Winchester Ranger +P+.

But those are boar....In Florida. I can't fathom those wild bears.

RIP
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Old December 10, 2018, 01:50 PM   #55
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I hope you realized that I am being sarcastic with seat belt comment
Yeppers, I recognized the intent.

I think that it must be said, though, that a seatbelt would have saved the guys. Either put the bear in a seat belt and strap it in tight, or put the unarmed yahoos into a seatbelt in a moving vehicle. When you have a jeep and you are bouncing down hill like beatle bailey on a donut run, a gun is more of a formality. Sort of like a tie at a board meeting, or a beer with your pizza.
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Old March 10, 2019, 05:00 PM   #56
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I carry a Glock 40, in 10MM. It is chambered. I really don’t care what others do, or what their reasons are.
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Old March 10, 2019, 05:57 PM   #57
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Bears are scary. And the only excuse for carrying unchambered is a lack of training.
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Old March 10, 2019, 06:00 PM   #58
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I pity the fool that is chosen to go tell the bear that it can't carry unchambered.
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Old March 13, 2019, 05:26 PM   #59
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everyone in the group should be familiar with the other guy's equipment. Know the safeties, know how to operate the phones, etc. If your phone is busted and your buddy is down after a car wreck outside of town, you had better know the password!
This is excellent advice! I'll just say that you don't need to know your buddy's cell phone password (though it still wouldn't be a bad idea) because modern phones allow you to dial 911 without the password. Here's how:

Apple iPhone

For Android phones, there is a similar way to do it but can't find a decent set of instructions online, and I can't demo it because I don't have an Android. Maybe some here knows how....
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Old March 13, 2019, 06:24 PM   #60
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Modern phones allow you to dial 911 without the password

For Android phones, there is a similar way to do it but can't find a decent set of instructions online...
If the instructions aren't 9-1-1, it probably isn't a viable option
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Old March 14, 2019, 06:40 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by photographix View Post
This is excellent advice! I'll just say that you don't need to know your buddy's cell phone password (though it still wouldn't be a bad idea) because modern phones allow you to dial 911 without the password. Here's how:

Apple iPhone

For Android phones, there is a similar way to do it but can't find a decent set of instructions online, and I can't demo it because I don't have an Android. Maybe some here knows how....
THANKS for that, I didn't know that..
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Old March 14, 2019, 09:30 AM   #62
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1. Dano nailed it. When field dressing game in Bear Country, one man stands guard at the ready.

2. It’s refreshing to read a well informed, well written article about a hunting tragedy. I agree with the conclusion that the guide should have followed and been trained in a safety procedure. Hopefully, people can learn from this and future tragedies avoided.

3. Glock 10mm? I assume they had a rifles capable of taking elk at hand. Without “situational awareness”, it doesn’t matter if it was 10mm or a howitzer. The hunters were surprised by a wild grizzly bear which smelled food.

4. Round in chamber? Israelis practice with empty chamber. It’s a non-issue. About the same as not knowing how to fire a single action revolver or operate a lever action rifle. If you are in hand-to-hand combat with a grizzly, even if a round had been in the chamber, the result is still questionable.

5. Everything goes out the window in a surprise attack. Everything. People are doing things by instinct, panic, and raw plain stupid stuff happens. You or I might do better or worse, no telling. Training is one thing, experience is a whole higher level. Maintaining situational awareness is what keeps one from being surprised. “Bob was dressing the Elk. I saw a grizzly coming 100 yards away. I regret we could not scare it off so we had to shoot it with the rifles we had at the ready.”

6. I’ve spent many a vacation in that area of Wyoming. It’s beautiful, breathtaking. It can make you wet, too cold, too hot, too dry, too hungry, too sick, too excited, too damn tired to even think straight all in one outing. I’m really sorry for these men and their families. I would really enjoy hunting there, if I was 20 years younger and I don’t think for a moment that disaster could not happen to me, too. I just hope my experiences of almost getting really messed over in that area of the country (several times, got lucky several times) might help just a little. But it’s wilderness and preparation and experience only reduce the chance of bad luck.

Bears: It’s more likely you’ll get hit by lightning if you hike or ski in bear country and pay attention and take reasonable precautions such as not smelling like food. I got good at shaving every last useless ounce off myself as I learned exhaustion was one of the real culprits to smart people doing dumb things. I have no need to pack a pistol, unless it’s for hunting or just the fun of feeling like a cowboy. (Can’t deny it, it’s fun.)

If I was ever to go elk hunting, that’s a whole other thing. I’d expect my guide to carry a lever action .45-70 / .44 magnum. If the backup is a Glock... whatever. Any big bore handgun, whatever. It’s backup to high powered rifles.

I was just a tourist many times in that back country, years ago. I’m no expert. I took to heart the advice “if you think any gun is going to save you from a grizzly, file the sights off it first. It’ll hurt less when he shoves it up your @ss.” Don’t smell like food.

Ps... the cell phone password is a good tip, and I’ll remember it when hunting and hiking in the tame areas I hunt that have cell phone service. (If you have not been to the Tetons... )

Last edited by stinkeypete; March 14, 2019 at 09:38 AM.
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