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Old November 1, 2018, 09:49 AM   #1
MarkCO
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Do you "Document" your training?

General question for discussion, as I am sure there is not a perfect answer...

Do you document, in some manner that could be presented as evidence, your training? Mil and LE have their qualifications as do most armed security companies for their employees. Would one think that it is akin to being able to prove you did the required maintenance on your car should there be a warranty issue? Annual paid class, monthly range time, shoot a few matches with the defensive guns...put those in play here too.

Interested to hear others thoughts Pro and Con for same. Lets keep it focused just on the training aspects if you were asked about your training after a situation in which your defensive firearm was at least presented. Sure there are going to be some who will get upset and want to discuss 2A issues and the Constitution, but please keep that for that forum.
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Old November 1, 2018, 09:59 AM   #2
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Yes I do. I have certificates showing the dates and classes taken and those are stored neatly in a cool, dry place. Every time I go shooting I take two pictures where one is from my standing position to the stand and the other is the target on the stand. Yes the argument could be made that someone else shot those targets or I moved the stand, but the point is a record of maintaining some level of skill.

I've also considered that these same records could be potentially used against me. The argument could be made that I have taken all of these courses and done all this shooting out of some desire to hurt others. My hope and intention is to demonstrate that this is not the case, and that I do this training to maximize my ability to stop a threat while minimizing my chances of hitting an innocent third party.

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Old November 1, 2018, 10:14 AM   #3
1-DAB
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no.

haven't taken any formal training classes.

don't record my range visits.

the only record of my shooting ability is the scores on Practiscore for various IDPA matches. normally 2 per month.

largely self taught.
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Old November 1, 2018, 12:07 PM   #4
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I would recommend it and list your sources.
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Old November 1, 2018, 01:11 PM   #5
1-DAB
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i understand .gov and .mil having documented standards, as they are passing out guns to people to use in an official capacity. but we are our own masters.
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Old November 1, 2018, 07:26 PM   #6
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Why would I document my training? I am perfectly satisfied with being held to a laymans standard. If anything, I would down play any particular training and likely not mention it at all.

I am not sure why someone would endeavour to "satisfy" someone elses desire to make some sort of determination regarding your knowledge and proficiencies. I know that I am competent and [I] am satisfied with my level of training. That's all that matters.
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Old November 1, 2018, 07:37 PM   #7
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I haven't documented all or even most of my training, but I have documented some of it, either by certificate of completion or just video. One of my instructors videos some of the drills we do for each individual student. I find these clips most useful for assessing progress, mechanics and so forth.

Honestly never thought about using any of it for legal purposes. Not a bad thought though.
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Old November 1, 2018, 10:27 PM   #8
armednfree
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Mine is kept by the state.
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Old November 2, 2018, 09:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Why would I document my training? I am perfectly satisfied with being held to a laymans standard. If anything, I would down play any particular training and likely not mention it at all.
One part of the “reasonable man doctrine” is that “reasonable man” knew what you did, at the time. The better your knowledge base was prior to the shooting the more knowledgeable that “reasonable man” was.

Any training you have (and can show) will now help you in court. Dont take my word for it, Mas Ayoob, who is prob the leading use of force expert witness in the country, expressly suggests you keep training records to include copies of the notes you take during your training.

Mas is not someone to take lightly in this area.
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Old November 2, 2018, 10:11 AM   #10
1-DAB
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I lost a lot of respect for Mas when he shot that revolver up in the air trying to show trigger pull. careless.

so if he's careless with a gun in his hand, in front of a paying audience, is he also careless with his advice that people pay to hear?

assume you are involved in a defensive shooting, as the 'good' guy. what matters? that you can express that you were afraid for your safety. and as a result, you were justified in shooting your gun.

nowhere in that do i see a need to show off how many classes you have attended that involved rolling in the dirt and shooting at targets on the clock. just because i can do a Bill Drill in 3.5 sec clean yesterday, that has no bearing on what happens today.
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Old November 2, 2018, 10:24 AM   #11
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what matters? that you can express that you were afraid for your safety. and as a result, you were justified in shooting your gun.
But you being able to express that fear is a result of your experience. A realistic understanding of your abilities and an understanding of the threat. The more you know (and can show you know) the better your defenses, both tactical and legal.

As to the ND Mas had.....

He himself said there was no excuse. He missed the round in the cylinder when he checked the gun prior to the demo. He made a mistake, and owned it. It sucks that it happened, but it did. Does that one error dismiss the decades of expert testomony and legal study? I dont think so.
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Old November 2, 2018, 11:07 AM   #12
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It's a logical fallacy to claim that because someone was once in error that all their knowledge/advice is also in error.

I'd also add that if the classes you're taking only involve rolling in the dirt and shooting bill drills you need to find other classes. I don't and never have argued that training should be mandatory for gun ownership, but if someone is going to characterize training without ever taking a formalized class then I'm going to make a comment.

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Old November 2, 2018, 10:17 PM   #13
armednfree
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All training does is try to pre-direct your reactions when you have an adrenaline dump. And you will have an adrenaline dump. I have every time someone tried to assault me.

It's fight, flight or freeze and most actually freeze for an extended period. That is because their response was not preconditioned. The more training, appropriately trained actually, the less likely you are to go into a freeze.

As far as keeping records. I'd say they won't help you. Either you had a reasonable fear or you didn't. Not much in between.
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Old November 3, 2018, 05:34 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by 1-DAB View Post
I lost a lot of respect for Mas when he shot that revolver up in the air trying to show trigger pull. careless.

so if he's careless with a gun in his hand, in front of a paying audience, is he also careless with his advice that people pay to hear?
So to be clear, you' re saying that because an instructor made a mistake, we should no longer respect his advice/instruction?

Oswald Boelcke: German WWI fighter ace with 40 credited air-to-air victories, the acknowledged "Father of modern air combat maneuvering, tactics and strategy," whose teachings are mandatory reading by the U.S. fighter community, died shortly after a mid-air collision with his own wingman due to his own momentary lack of situational awareness. Good thing our fighter pilots don't think like you.
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Old November 3, 2018, 05:44 PM   #15
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So to be clear, you' re saying that because an instructor made a mistake, we should no longer respect his advice/instruction?

Oswald Boelcke: German WWI fighter ace with 40 credited air-to-air victories, the acknowledged "Father of modern air combat maneuvering, tactics and strategy," whose teachings are mandatory reading by the U.S. fighter community, died shortly after a mid-air collision with his own wingman due to his own momentary lack of situational awareness. Good thing our fighter pilots don't think like you.
good job on shining a bright light on common sense for some of the people who may have missed it. It doesn't get much plainer than that.
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Old November 3, 2018, 05:50 PM   #16
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I lost a lot of respect for Mas when he shot that revolver up in the air trying to show trigger pull. careless.

so if he's careless with a gun in his hand, in front of a paying audience, is he also careless with his advice that people pay to hear?
I cant help but just stare in amazement at this comment.

There is a huge difference in error and incompetence. If you plan to draw an equivalence between those things, I am not really sure how many human beings you will continue to have respect for or learn from.

A master chef is still a master chef even when he ruins the Flambe' from time to time.

good luck
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Old November 3, 2018, 08:46 PM   #17
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My documents of completion is all I have and they stay in the safe.

I do not keep a diary of it.
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Old November 4, 2018, 02:22 PM   #18
1-DAB
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Mr. Ayoob holds himself out as a legal expert in regards to self defense and the use of firearms. But he is not a lawyer.

He holds himself out as an expert shot, regularly demonstrating drills and courses of fire to classes and challenging students to do better than him. But he handles a gun carelessly.

So if you want to hang your hat on what he teaches, just know what package you are buying.

Does he know more than I know about the legal aspects of armed self defense? very likely, as that is not something I've studied much.

Is he a better shot than me? Probably. But I haven't shot a revolver into the air in front of a paying class.
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Old November 4, 2018, 03:56 PM   #19
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Yes, I document my training routine and scores, although not for potential court purposes. This is so I can track my performance over time with accuracy, determine what methods work better and doesn't, and ensure continuous improvement. Once or twice a year I'll get professional instruction when I hit a plateau, or want to try something new.

I suppose at some point I'll just go in skill maintenance routine. However for now there's still lots of fun stuff to learn.
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Old November 21, 2018, 10:51 AM   #20
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Yes. I also have certificates.
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Old November 21, 2018, 05:31 PM   #21
GarandTd
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I have a carry permit. That is the only documentation I have. I don't think having documentation of your training is a bad thing, but I think it could be turned against you in court by the right lawyer.
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Old November 21, 2018, 08:05 PM   #22
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I would suggest that the more documentation found about your training level, the higher the standard you could be held. Law enforcement agencies keep meticulous records of their officers training, not for the officers benefit but to lesson the liability of that officers agency in the event of a critical incident.
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Old November 21, 2018, 09:03 PM   #23
TunnelRat
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Originally Posted by Targa View Post
I would suggest that the more documentation found about your training level, the higher the standard you could be held. Law enforcement agencies keep meticulous records of their officers training, not for the officers benefit but to lesson the liability of that officers agency in the event of a critical incident.
By this logic we shouldn't have any training as no one could hold us accountable. I don't agree. I also don't agree that the sole reason agencies have their officers receive training is to remove themselves from liability and not to improve their abilities.

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Old November 22, 2018, 07:18 AM   #24
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I can imagine a post-shooting prosecutor suggesting that one's extensive training documentation was de facto evidence of a person who was "obsessed" with guns.
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Old November 22, 2018, 07:40 AM   #25
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I've never considered this question before. It's probably like anything else, for every lawyer who can use it in your favor there's another who will figure out a way to use it against you. I don't think having them locked up in the safe is a bad idea..
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