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Old September 24, 2018, 12:01 PM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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An analysis of open carry problems

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...nds-open-carry

Greg E. lays out the risks and disadvantages of open carry. The issue not be the 'right' but the pragmatics.

No insults of anyone please. This is for your information. If you disagree or agree don't call anyone a name or enemy of the 2nd Amend.
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Old September 24, 2018, 03:34 PM   #2
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My opinion is that the negative aspects are dictated by location. I have done my own open carry experiments thru the last 15 years, living in Alaska there is little outcry over an openly displayed holstered sidearm. Even in liberal hotspots, there is more eyebrows raised over someone wearing an item with an animals fun rather than the gun on ones hip.

Its my experience that only a fraction of people ever notice an open carrier anyways. Most people have tunnel vision.

with that said, the only times I do carry openly anymore is when I have to go pick up the family or drop them off and I am not intending to get out of the vehicle. A shoulder holster means I don't have to wear pants.
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Old September 24, 2018, 03:52 PM   #3
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When I do drills the time it takes me to draw and get a hit from concealment (light cover garment) is usually 0.30 seconds slower than without the garment. Now if I'm dressed for the winter that obviously goes up, but absent dealing with heavy snow or bitter cold while shoveling or hiking I deal with being a bit colder than I'd like. While that's not no time at all, it's not enough for me to give up the advantage of being concealed. While open carry is legal in my state, it's something that would get noticed. I agree most people are oblivious, but not all criminals are idiots or they usually aren't criminals for long. I've trained under a number of police officers that knew criminals that would deliberately target those they could tell were carrying, concealed or otherwise, for their firearms. There are also situations I can envision where I might choose compliance over the use of deadly force. In those instances having a visible weapon that might prompt a reaction I wouldn't get otherwise is something I think about. Firearms are weapons. The known presence of them can escalate situations, and I'm of the opinion that the escalation is more likely than intimidation.

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Old September 25, 2018, 09:07 AM   #4
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Observtions on open carry...

two years ago, I drove my wife to Walmart for grocieries after 8PM.

She shopped and I was over inth sporting goods, meet together for checking out and I noticed a group of 20 -30's year-olds at one check-out.

Two were open-carrying and ones' semi was horizontal to the floor [on a loose belt] and he was talking with others in the group.
I could have grabbed it and done some damage. The other OC jerk, was fooling around with young woman, Both had no situational awareness.

I was CPLing a J-frame in pocket holster. and I was always scanning the area.

Bottom line: they didnot help.

After Michigan enacted "Shall issue", a reserve deputy from thee Monroe Cty. sheriff Dept., when to the local mall . took off his coat and slowly rotated around, showing off hie sidearm, [not known if it was department issue].
Bottom line: He is no longer a reserve officer.
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Old September 25, 2018, 09:56 AM   #5
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IMHO, one does what is appropriate for the setting. I don't wear a tux to go fishing. and I don't wear waders to the symphony. Both would be legal, but not appropriate.

I open carry in the field, hunting or fishing. I CCW in town.
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Old September 25, 2018, 05:19 PM   #6
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I have never been a proponent of OC for many reasons and the article above stands to reaffirms my belief that its simply bad tactics for the plain clothed citizen.
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Old September 25, 2018, 06:08 PM   #7
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“I support the right, not the practice.”
Agreed. I have seen several open handguns. Never have I seen one where I felt good about him having a gun hanging out in the sunshine. One, for example, was a skuzzy, filthy, unkempt guy who had a big old gun. It shocked me, and made me really uncomfortable, because he looked good and stoopid too. when he spoke up, it seemed that he was genuinely good and stoopid.

I don't want other people to see him packing the mule whopper around. If the guy made me want to leave the store, what impression did he leave on the others?

Last week I went into sams, and was followed by a doddering old guy with a belt holster. He hobbled around, and I don't like the idea of a guy who uses a cane carrying a gun on his belt. I don't think that he would have frightened all of the little old ladies who saw him, but I was still uncomfortable seeing a hunchbacked old fella with an open carry weapon.

Then there was mister stud, who packed a glock in an expensive looking holster. I could see hubris in his face, he was all manhood and confidence, nobody would be bothering him! I'm sure that he impressed all of the ladies, and all of the men saw his godliness and coolness. If he thought that he needed to walk around at the store with his race rig, it shows that he wasn't keeping up with reality. He didn't need to, he wanted to.

A weapon is not a toy, it's not a fashion statement, it's best kept discreet until needed, and in our country, there is almost never a time when it is a good idea, imo. Walking through the grocery store wearing the sons of anarchy style clothing and a big old 1911 isn't appropriate. Scaring people isn't appropriate. You can't help it if guns scare people, but the carrier has the choice of deliberately upsetting the people around him, or doing something smarter and less antisocial.

Open carry is a can of worms. With as many people out there who hate and fear people who own them, having someone "brandishing" a weapon in public has nothing positive to contribute.


I know that many people disagree with me. some of them get plain old nasty about it. The reality of our situation is that everyone has a responsibility to not tear up the pea patch. The guy who rattles our windows several times a day with his van full of speakers and batteries is being a jerk. I like the peace and quiet. he is also violating noise ordinances, I could have him charged with the misdemeanor. The guy who open carries just so he can get attention, see the little old ladies at macy's faint, well, that particular guy is a jerk too.
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Old September 25, 2018, 07:24 PM   #8
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Like briandg, I support the right but generally not the practice. I think there may be places and situations where open carry is acceptable or even prefered, but those would be very rare.

Unlike briandg, I am unable to determine intelligence, character or motivation by what a person wears, how he/she looks, or the gun being carried. Stereotyping by these things is something I try to avoid. Read or listen to the stereotype of anyone who carries a gun by the anti gun crowd, and it makes my point. We are generally considered to be unaware and unenlightened at best.
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Old September 25, 2018, 08:32 PM   #9
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Sometimes I do sometimes I don't. Depends on the weather and the company.
One thing I don't do is sit in judgement.
Everyone has their own reasons for the choices they make.
Personally, I like the sight of guns in general. I find actions to be much more important than the tool or how it's carried.
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Old September 25, 2018, 08:44 PM   #10
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Saw that. Absolutely support the right. Absolutely believe OC = “Shoot Me First, I am a threat.”
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Old September 25, 2018, 09:33 PM   #11
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kmac, you know quite well that you do the same judgment of character probably every day. A homeless person talking to himself is either a homeless person with mental problems, or an actor. No gun for him.

An older man who has a cane in his gun hand shouldn't open carry. He has made a target out of himself. A ten year old could take it. Can't get any clearer than that, can we?

I don't know how often you go to public ranges, but I know that you have spent many times looking at people and assessing their qualifications, and I suspect that once in a while you have even moved to the other end of the range because the guy looked like a walking 911 call.

If you can't spend a few minutes working out why the guy carrying that gun is doing so, you are ignoring part of your situational awareness. That cocky punk that walked into the gas station carrying his gun in his pocket may even be there to rob the place or to wait and ambush the guy who will come in next.

Stereotyping? that's not what I do. It's ridiculous.

Stereotyping means to force an image onto a person based on whatever the viewer wants to think, right? Look at a person and assume that the person is what you expect he is, without any thought about it?

Look, observe, analyze, hypothesize.

Smells like garbage, torn clothes, filthy hair and beard, 1,2,3,4. probably homeless.

When you went through police academy they should have told you that observing and understanding the things around you is important, but what you seem to be saying about me is that I'm doing something bad. I don't know why you think that it's a bad thing to try and understand and know something about the people in your vicinity.

Especially if that guy is carrying a gun.
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Old September 25, 2018, 11:27 PM   #12
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I don't think some judgement is a problem. If people don't fit the place, if their demeanor doesn't fit, it's a warning sign.

A 50ish guy in cowboy boots, jeans, button down shirt, and cowboy hat casually open carrying a revolver in rural Montana probably wouldn't concern me that much. A 20-30 guy in unkempt clothes, nervously carrying a slung AK in suburban Virginia would ABSOLUTELY get my attention. Both are legal, but one is seriously out of place.
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Old September 25, 2018, 11:40 PM   #13
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Briandg I think it takes a certain amount hubris to assign hubris to an individual because of his facial expressions or his fancy holster. I think the doddering old man with a cane may surprise a punk trying to take his weapon. I think a guy down on his luck has as much right to carry as you or I do. The "cocky punk" at the gas station may simply be there to buy a Red Bull or even God forbid a beer or pack of cigarettes.

Yes, being situationally aware means paying attention. I don't walk my dog past the bar up the street when there is a bunch of folks on the porch. Not because there are thugs on the porch, but because I have other routes and I don't like to be around folks who are drinking. If I pull into a gas station and there are a group of kids or adults hanging around I may go somewhere else. Why? Because I used to be a mouthy kid with a chip on my shoulder and life is too short to deal with mouthy kids, unless they are grandkids of course.

There is a big difference in being situationally aware and judging people based on superficial things. Being alert, avoiding dangerous situations, maintaining personal space, and watching people are all part of awareness. I don't spend any time trying to figure out why someone is carrying a gun. Is his behavior threatening or suspicious? The guy wearing the race rig is far less a concern to me than the guy at the range who makes a point of showing his disapproval for anyone who doesn't meet his standards.

And yes, I have packed up and left a public range because of rowdy and unsafe behavior.
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Old September 26, 2018, 04:54 AM   #14
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I was reading gun laws about a year ago in other states and I noticed Virginia had it so I called a Trooper buddy up there and asked them when that got passed and he told me, "It's never been any other way." "You don't see it often but we don't care."
Last year we were in Virginia on vacation and I walked in a large grocery store that was very crowded and here comes this guy in shorts, T shirt carrying a Beretta 92 so I followed him a while and wanted to see what the reaction was from the other customers.

Absolutely no one gave him any notice. Here's the funny part, you don't need a permit to open carry in Virginia but you do for concealed.

My buddy up there is a gun lover and he told me he stopped this guy for expired tag and when he went up to pickup the driver told him he had a unloaded gun in right front floor board. He looked in and saw a Ruger speed Six and went back and wrote him the ticket.

He went back to the car and gave him the ticket and asked, "Why isn't the gun loaded?" Driver said he thought it had to be unloaded and my buddy told him, "It won't do you any good like it is."

We hope to get it passed in SC and the only time I would OC would be on my mountain bike. There seems to be this mindset that people like to throw things at folks riding bikes. Had a buddy here who is retired DEA and was Chief of small dept near me who told me a bike rider was hit with a brick near my house. So for years I rode with a Swiss M1911 rifle slung over my back just so folks with the bricks, bottles etc would be advised what they might generate if they couldn't resist the urge.

Otherwise it is concealed so as they say in Britain "give'em the good news" if needed.
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Old September 26, 2018, 09:16 AM   #15
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Quote:
There is a big difference in being situationally aware and judging people based on superficial things.
What you call judging is a simple fact that the content of most books can in fact be determined by the cover. you can go through your life deciding not to think about whether the mouthy kid with a chip on his shoulder might pose a danger, that's your prerogative. Fine, believe that the old man with the cane can take out the mouthy kid who likes the look of his gun. You can just ignore all of this and decide that nobody should be judged just because he is carrying a gun out in the open and fits general criteria of a person who probably shouldn't be carrying one. Openly Carrying a gun and fitting a general profile of someone who shouldn't be is exactlywhen you should be giving the person a closer look. For the love of god, do most of the killers and criminals out there look like they just left church?

Should you look at the guy who leaves the bar and walks unsteadily to his car? Ohh, yep, he maybe shouldn't be driving.

For some reason unknown to me, you believe that I should not look at a person and examine their appearance and activities, and the fact that they are carrying a gun, then decide whether their behavior is unusual, and whether they may in fact present some sort of danger to myself and others. I don't understand that, every cop or soldier does that all day long. Why am I expected to walk around with my head in the clouds, and not think about whether the old guy may have his gun taken away?

Let me remind you, that post had very little to do with my personal thoughts, you put that in all by yourself. My post was about whether a homeless guy who looks nuts is going to upset the crowd of soccer moms and maybe cause a few traffic accidents, and whether it's a good idea to allow that homeless guy who would scare the water out of enough people to cause a problem to carry the gun.

Carrying a gun and making a scene with it would be chargeable as a public nuisance.

I'm going to relate two more points here. many years ago, a man who was mentally slow and possibly autistic was going through my neighborhood with a pistol that I recognized as just a black replica. he went through people's yards playing cops and robbers with imaginary bad guys. I stopped this same guy from beating up a couple of kids later on.

A few years ago a guy was walking down main street in fatigues, carrying a rifle in the late of night. Turned out to be an air rifle, guy turned out to be another "disadvantaged" type. As god is in his heaven, I want people to look at these folks and "judge" whether the mentally handicapped kid with the green mohawk has stolen his fathers gun and is going around the neighborhood with a live handgun. I want them to wonder if the guy with the rifle is on his way to the church's midnight service. The fact is, sometime in that same five year period, a senior at the high school walked into the school with an AK and wearing fatigues, and fired a shot into the ceiling. he then pulled the trigger on a vice principle, but the gun had jammed.

Disagree with me if you want, but don't ridicule the possibility that a guy carrying a gun may be intending to use it illegally, and don't even consider the possibility that this same guy will go unnoticed by people who will be terrified at the sight and cause trouble.

Several years ago, in late september, we had a halloween pop up store here. they set a guy up out at the street, waving a machete at people. Someone called the police, and since he over a block away from the actual store, they didn't know that he was just playing. They held him at gun point until they found that it was plastic, then, judging that it wasn't smart to upset the people driving by at 45 mph, they told the manager "NO MORE CRAZY LOOKING EMPLOYEES WAVING WEAPONS AT THE PEOPLE ON THE STREET!"

I've got nothing more to say. Maybe some people will read this and understand.

The guy who wrote the article layed out dozens of events that supported these same concerns. If you don't like my conclusions I can't change you or help you.
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Old September 26, 2018, 09:48 AM   #16
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Time and place. Does it matter if I open carry or have incidental exposure at the hardware store in the village near where I live? Considering it still has a gun counter I highly doubt it. When I took the deer I shot for processing last year? Doubt it. When I walk into Wal-Mart in an extremely conservative farming community? Maybe.

When I go into the local mall? Yeh.. not gonna work out there and I will be asked to leave for trespassing.
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Old September 26, 2018, 10:45 AM   #17
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People have been ejected from the mall for wearing clothes that were too short, too gangsta, too skimpy...

Only a year ago, maybe less, a girl who went to the mall with a tight shirt and left the bra at home, and when she was told that she had violated the dress code and complaints had been registered, she got angry.

If a woman stands on a corner at the mall with a porn chick costume on, she will be "judged" to be a sex worker by some people. It doesn't matter if she is a nun in disguise, it's still going to cause a stir and she may wind up in custody.

Like it or not, just as you say, lohman,, people have to adapt to their particular circumstances. As much as I would love to carry an AR with me on black friday, just in case of riots and breakdowns of civilization, jeeze, that would prove that I was just as stupid as an oyster with a head injury.
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Old September 26, 2018, 10:53 AM   #18
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For some reason unknown to me, you believe that I should not look at a person and examine their appearance and activities, and the fact that they are carrying a gun, then decide whether their behavior is unusual, and whether they may in fact present some sort of danger to myself and others.
Nope, with all due respect, that is not what I said. What I said is that I evaluate whether the person is threatening or suspicious. What I strongly disagree with is you drawing conclusions about a person's character or motivation based on your profiling. Yes, some police do it often, but it has been found to be unconstitutional in most cases. While I am on record as not believing open carry is a good idea in most cases, judging books or people solely on appearance is wrong for a lot of reasons in my not so humble opinion.

One more thought and I'm done here. The idea folks must meet some sort of poorly defined and subjective criteria in order to constitutionally carry a gun has been supported by anti gun zealots for years. I think we have to be very careful not to give tacit approval to their cause.
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Old September 26, 2018, 12:39 PM   #19
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About the only time I carry is when I hunt, or am on my own property. Where I live, it's legal to carry open, but concealed carry requires a permit. Very few carry open, but those I'm aware of have had few, if any, issues from anyone.

If I feel the need to carry, I will do so "open". I would much rather carry concealed, but am unwilling to stoop to obtain permission to do so when I still have the right to carry open. I would probably carry open more often, but decline due to the grave responsibility of keeping others away from my sidearm. As a result, it's very rare that I carry.
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Old September 26, 2018, 01:31 PM   #20
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judging books or people solely on appearance is wrong for a lot of reasons in my not so humble opinion.
outward presentation can certainly be a part of assessing the nature of people. Its routinely accepted as an intrical part of threat assessing and profiling. Ideally its supplemented and compared to more in depth information but unfortunately, sometimes its often all you have. I agree that profiling can be a poor method to use if the subsequent actions can be seen as infringing upon a persons rights or liberty. This thread is not about that and judging a book by its cover in regards to personally avoiding potentially dangerous circumstances is plain ole common sense. Its the kind of common sense which has been around for thousands of years. Most people makes these sort of judgments of others 1000 times a day. Some of it is instinctual while other parts may be experience driven or trained habit.
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Old September 26, 2018, 01:39 PM   #21
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"...don't wear a tux to go fishing..." Savage. snicker.
Lotta daft arguements that don't really apply in that article. "Open Carry" isn't about an AK over your back. And if open carry is legal it's far more likely to be in a place where firearms don't scare anybody. It's not about who is scary looking or how they're dressed either. One would assume a licence/permit and some kind of training is required.
Mind you, I'm of the opinion a lot of people carry more because they can than out of any need. Who'd want to live where carrying a firearm was needed? Like downtown Beirut or Damascus.
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Old September 26, 2018, 02:42 PM   #22
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just because something isn't illegal does not automatically make it prudent. I have not had to occasion to meet every open carrier on the planet but I do live in an open carry State. That said, open carry seems to be more about activism, attention or social engineering and less about anything related to self defense.
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Old September 26, 2018, 03:00 PM   #23
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I’ve OC for years,as a kid with my .22 pistol while running the trapline, when I head out to my woods With my .45 Blackhawk also walking the roads by my house.

OC has its place and I’m blessed to live in a state that it’s legal to do so but I won’t OC in a crowd, That’s the time for CC because my goal is protection not proving a point.


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Old September 26, 2018, 03:41 PM   #24
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People are funny.
I have one arm and by any standard an outdoorsman but I made my living as an electrician who wore a tool pouch.
I stopped carrying folding knives and went to a small (3" blade) belt knife (edc) to cut food with. Serrations don't complement one handed cutting.
On one occasion I was accosted by a head nurse for carrying a weapon. I drew a 12" screwdriver and told her I needed it to turn screws.
That was just one of many who took one look and knew my mind, my intentions and my ability.
I'll go back to doddering now.
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Old September 26, 2018, 05:42 PM   #25
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The social acceptance of open carry varies a great deal from place to place, but the tactical considerations discussed do not. Here in Florida, open carry is not legal except during hunting and fishing trips, so it is never seen here, and would generate considerable alarm if it was observed.

The idea of not judging people by their appearance and demeanor seems to be wholly inconsistent with the idea of situational awareness. Judging them to be less of a person or less worthy of basic rights is different than assessing the level of threat they possess.
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