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Old April 25, 2016, 12:07 PM   #51
JeepHammer
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RC20,
It depends on the composition of the case.
Some will do more reloadings than others, and since I don't have equipment to tell precise components in the brass, or precise amounts, I can't tell which cases will 'Come Back' better than others in advance.

Annealing a little 'Slower' (lower power, longer exposure time) seems to produce consistant neck tension longer, but those cases show 'Migration', thinning of the brass in the case wall worse than fast annealed cases.

My military brass annealed the first time slower/lower power, then annealed with the rest of 'Production' brass last longer without the usual neck splitting that I had issues with when using military brass, which using Rockwell hardness scale testing, show up 'Harder' than civilian brass much of the time.

My THEORY is unproven by close scientific testing,
but goes like this...
Military cases are hard crimped, a through annealing takes the work hardening out of the neck, and returns the brass back to 'Dead Soft',
So the stress/work hardening is removed, and the brass simply lives longer without splitting.

I'm also sure NOT being shot in a sloppy machine gun chamber helps the brass live longer,
But between hard crimps, and sloppy machine gun chambers, military brass has had a hard life before it gets to me,
I'm also sure using a 'tight' chamber limits the work hardening and blow out problems to some degree once I get it.

As for AC or DC, that's a 'gray' area to guys that work with electronics.

House current doesn't 'Flip' polarity nearly fast enough to do this process out of a wall outlet, and the house current can't be 'Switched' fast enough, so its not compatible with the switching electronics.

A 'Flat' DC input is required for the 'Switching' circuits, so they can deliver current (amperage) polarity 'Flips' with no 'Ramp Up' time to full power.

This is the 'Electro-Magnetic Link' in action...

Every MOVING electrical current produces a magnetic field.
The key here is MOVING.

Every MOVING magnetic field passing through an electrical conductor produces an electrical current.

This is called 'Induction', Meaning to 'Induce'.

MOVING electrical currents and magnetic fields are interlinked by the laws of physics, they can't be separated.

By alternating polarity (Flipping) from a DC source, the unit produces AC at a VERY high frequency, And at a very high power.

This pulls electrically conductive materials 'Back & Forth' creating friction on a molecular level, which heats the material all the way through, all at the same time.

As Voltage switches polarity at full power, the magnetic fields produce 'Eddie Currents' as the magnetic poles reverse, which 'Excites' anything electrically conductive in close proximity.
That 'Excite' shows up as 'Heat' energy from friction.

The higher power the switching semi-conductors can handle, the more powerful the induction effect.
Most semi-conductors can't deal with an AC input, so you simply use a DC input to the induction unit.
This isn't much different than any other compound electrical device, from TVs to microwaves, ect.
Home power AC is converted to DC then used for the advanced electronics.
Virtually every electrical device other than incandecent bulbs and simple motors use a 'Rectifier' to convert AC into DC, so it's not 'New' or 'Rocket Science'...

Last edited by JeepHammer; April 25, 2016 at 12:35 PM.
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Old April 25, 2016, 12:53 PM   #52
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Snyper,
What you see on the case as a 'Line' is a reaction with oxygen at a given temp.
Cases annealed in an argon gas shield do not show the 'Line'.

A 'Shiny' upper case neck is almost always a case that has been overheated, bringing the Zinc to the surface, which is easy to test for with chemical reaction, something that reacts with zinc strongly that doesn't react as quickly with copper/brass.
Separate the zinc and you don't have 'High' brass anymore, you have more copper than zinc and you are on the path to a neck separation, especially at the top shoulder bend.

How you do things is entirely up to you. If it's working for you, you are doing something correctly...

It simply makes more sense that INTERNAL heating the case through induction gets you a more even heat,
While EXTERNAL heat sources produce excessive outside heat, waiting for the heat to transfer ('creep') through to the internal part of the case,
While in some cases, the outside of the case seriously overheats...

It's one of those things that 'Seem' simple, but is actually complex...

If what you are doing works for you, then by all means keep doing it.
Just keep in mind this is a thread on electrical induction heating, specifically a 'How To' thread,...
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Old April 28, 2016, 01:00 PM   #53
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JeepHammer:

thank you for the detailed explanation.

Most interesting
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Old April 29, 2016, 09:24 AM   #54
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RC20,
The more electrical resistive (Resistor) the material (like steel opposed to copper) the faster the material will heat up.

Since brass has a lot of copper, its slow to heat.
I use a much higher powered supply than would be nessary for steel, with more robust switching (and larger heat sinks to keep those semi-conductors cool) in production.

Its not nessary if you are running lower power.
One 'Trick' is to turn the power supply fan so it draws air over the heat sink fins of the induction unit.
Might as well use the fan to do two functions at the same time aince the two components are in close proximity to each other.

This isn't 'Rocket Science', its actually pretty simple when you break it down into component pieces, and the components are dirt cheap, often salvage parts,
Got any idea how many microwaves, TVs, computers, ect get scrapped every year in this country?

Microwave turn table motors work VERY well for case feeder power units.
A 5 gallon bucket, turntable motor, piece of plexi-glass from the hardware store and a couple of switches and you are off to the races with a case feeder that would normally cost $250...

Bullet feeders are a little more tricky to figure out, but mostly the same cost to build, and they often run closer to $500

Tread mills are everywhere, they will supply you with everything but sealed container, and they make INDUSTRAL grade brass tumblers.

Just a little 'Hacking' of other common crap, like 'Plasma' TV sets will often net you the high powered switching semi-conductors needed for high powered annealing, along with things like transformers, ect.

Some guys have no idea how electricity works, so anything beyond changing flashlight batteries is going to baffle & scare them...
The 'YouTube' DIY videos on induction heating will show a ton of components, how to wire them, tips on soldering things together, ect when you start out.
With directions like that, if you can put a model car together you can build the annealing unit from scratch/loose parts...
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Old April 30, 2016, 11:23 AM   #55
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JH:

I work with generators, switchgear, motor controls, UPS, building control systems. I just spend a good part of the last week on a 5 gallon bucket working on a simple air conditioning unit that defied others (and won).

I think it takes more than electrical knowledge, its takes what I think of as an artist imagination to do what you are doing.

My hat is off to you. I have done some pretty good circuit work to get a system to do what I wanted but pulling all that stuff together to do what you have done is beyond me. I can understand it if I see the diagram, and might even be able to add to it, but doing it from zero no.
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Old April 30, 2016, 04:15 PM   #56
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I'm not working from nothing, there is about 250 years of electrical experimentation before me...
It takes rooms full of electrical engineers 10 years to work out something like a common ignition module, but once it works and is dependable, you can use it for a TON of stuff.

I have a lifetime of 'Rube Goldberg' gadgets behind me, and some still ahead of me, if I'm lucky! (knock wood)

Case feeders aren't exactly 'Precision', the most precise tool I used was a tape measurer, and nothing like saving $230 to keep you motivated!

Same with a lot of the stuff we use, I'm using a cement mixer to clean volumes of brass, cheap, turns the right speed, handles heavy weight, dumps easily, line the drum with HDPE sheet (the same stuff used for flexable cutting boards in kitchens) and you are off to the races.

Case annealing is one of those things,
Flame annealing didn't do the job I wanted, so I looked into how the big places do it, scaled electrical annealing down to what I needed.
Looks goofy, but it works for my application.
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Old November 29, 2016, 08:11 PM   #57
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Annealer

Jeephammer i need some help with the "one at a time" method..i bought the induction kit in your link..and cant get it to heat fast enough to only heat the case mouth..it is very long, how many seconds it is supposed to take for a 308 brass with this little 150watt inductor
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Old November 29, 2016, 10:18 PM   #58
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You can calculate what it would take. You have something like a gram to a gram and a half of brass in the neck and shoulder. The specific heat is about 3/8 of a joule. So, to raise the brass about 400°C would take about 150 joules. The definition of a watt is a joule per second, so if you got 150 watts to transfer without loss to the neck and shoulder, it should be done in about a second. In reality, you are using an air core coil, so it might take three seconds, but not long if all is correctly in place.
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Old November 29, 2016, 10:38 PM   #59
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It's the 150 watt thing.
Normally I start at 1,000 to 1,500 watts.
Go much above 1,500 and watts and you start looking at 220v power supply to feed it.

150 watts just isn't enough to feed the beast.

What input is your induction unit rated for?
Maybe just use a bigger power supply?

You might also look into a ferrite 'C' core to 'focus' the smaller output unit.
Are you willing to work with this some? If so, I'll try to walk you through debugging it...
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Old November 30, 2016, 12:59 AM   #60
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I may actually build one of these. Now, I may complicate it a bit. Would it be plausible to add a photo gate and have the brass free fall through the coil and use the gate as a delay timer to let the brass free fall through and anneal only the neck? Or maybe just as a way to let the more volume geared machines cycle on and off
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Old November 30, 2016, 05:15 AM   #61
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I swipe photo eyes out of printers, there is usually between 2 & 4 in the multi-purpose printers.
I use one on rifle case feeder, just off set from center.
Lets me know when a case snuck in upside down.
Since most are housed in a 'C' shape set, makes them easy to work with.

Proximity sensors don't like being too close to the coil, so photo is the way to go.
Magnetic field messes with magnetic proximity sensors.
The proximity sensors I use up high on case feeders and such hate being down by the coil.

There isn't much colabration on Internet forums, if there were, with the wide range of specialities this bunch has we could whip up something that would be specifically reloader, instead of having to make due with trying to get things modified to work.
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Old November 30, 2016, 11:12 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by jeephammer
You might also look into a ferrite 'C' core to 'focus' the smaller output unit.
This ^^^ would make a big difference. 150W delivered is enough power, but the problem is getting enough of the magnetic lines of force actually intercepted by the brass to get that delivery. Given how thin the brass is, that is difficult. A shaped coil following the brass contour close to the surface would increase it, but since I haven't tried this and am operating on theory, for the existing commercial kit formats we need to rely on Jeephammer's experience with them, which makes it sound like even 5% (0.05 coupling coefficient) is difficult to achieve with the standard air core coils in the kits. A C-core coil will have losses, but not nearly as high as the air core coil because the magnetic lines of force are concentrated in the gap between the core poles.

By the way, the load from heating the case is in addition to radiation loses (small) and I²R losses in the circuitry. If you put a wattmeter on the device, you should see that input power increase by the amount of power delivered to the case when you insert it plus efficiency losses. But it will give you some idea what you are actually putting into the brass.

Another thing you could try is suspending a sub-caliber piece of ferrite rod in the center of the case mouth. Say, a threaded core out of an abandoned small radio coil. Like the C-core, this will increase inductance so you will tune the frequency downward a bit, but if the coil is substantially wider than the case that won't be a big percent change and it may just increase the number of lines of force passing through the brass enough to be useful, if it doesn't saturate too easily. You'd have to try it.
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Old November 30, 2016, 11:18 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
I swipe photo eyes out of printers, there is usually between 2 & 4 in the multi-purpose printers.
I use one on rifle case feeder, just off set from center.
Lets me know when a case snuck in upside down.
Since most are housed in a 'C' shape set, makes them easy to work with.

Proximity sensors don't like being too close to the coil, so photo is the way to go.
Magnetic field messes with magnetic proximity sensors.
The proximity sensors I use up high on case feeders and such hate being down by the coil.

There isn't much colabration on Internet forums, if there were, with the wide range of specialities this bunch has we could whip up something that would be specifically reloader, instead of having to make due with trying to get things modified to work.
Luckily I work in the copier industry, so I know exactly what you're talking about.

Would it be feasible to make a free fall annealer? The coil would have to be pretty high powered to heat the neck to the right temp that fast, but also not too much heat, but also will need perfect timing to not anneal the whole case. Maybe I'm in over complicating things.

I do like the idea of having a photo sensor off center to detect an upside down case.
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Old November 30, 2016, 12:09 PM   #64
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If I understand what you mean by drop-through, you want to anneal the neck and shoulder (you never anneal the head; it has to stay hard to contain pressure properly) while the case is falling into the coil. If it starts out mouth-down and falls half an inch to get the neck and shoulder inside the coil, that takes about 0.05 seconds, at which point the power comes on. It would then fall, say, another 0.2 inches while the power is applied, at which point the power turns off. Given the starting velocity from having fallen half an inch and the added acceleration during the next 0.2 inches, this will mean applying the power for 9 milliseconds and then letting the rest of the case fall through without power. 150 joules in 0.009s would require delivered energy of 16.667 kW. If the unit has to be 20 times bigger than the delivered power, as seems to be the case for air cores, you'd need a 333 kW machine.

On the other hand, if by drop-through you mean positioning the brass, holding it in the coil, and then having a solenoid drop it through the coil, you still have to have a moving coil that raises to go around the brass, then lowers so the neck case can come into position. The C-core just requires that the neck and shoulder be positioned between the ends of the C, which could be done on a pass-through, and then the case falls off the end of the machine. So basically, you can take any of the annealing machines you see operating with a flame source and substitute positioning between the ends of the C for applying a flame. That is what is being done with the Giraud annealer in this video. Normally the Giraud sells with a torch that hits the case necks, but in that video it is rigged with a C-core Fluxeon induction heater. There are pictures of it with both the torch (top) and the Fluxeon unit on this page.

You may want to look at the Fluxeon unit alone. It's 1200W, and as the photo from Giraud shows, will get a .308 case to temperature in about 1.5s with the C-core.
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Old November 30, 2016, 05:14 PM   #65
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Quote:
Do you have a video link? The only case forming production I have seen used open flames for annealing.
Quote:
Pan of water, propane torch. It has worked for years, and it still works today.
Many years ago I built a case annealer, All I have invested is a little time. It reminds me of the ole retired man that was asked to help get the electricity back on. He charge the electrical company a ton of money; needless to they were not happy. They wanted to know why he charged so much money for simply lightly tapping on a junction with a small hammer. They did not think he worked hard enough for the large amount he charged.

He explained to them he did not charge for tapping on the junction, he said he charged them a lot of money for knowing where to tap

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Old November 30, 2016, 06:19 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenick View Post
If I understand what you mean by drop-through, you want to anneal the neck and shoulder (you never anneal the head; it has to stay hard to contain pressure properly) while the case is falling into the coil. If it starts out mouth-down and falls half an inch to get the neck and shoulder inside the coil, that takes about 0.05 seconds, at which point the power comes on. It would then fall, say, another 0.2 inches while the power is applied, at which point the power turns off. Given the starting velocity from having fallen half an inch and the added acceleration during the next 0.2 inches, this will mean applying the power for 9 milliseconds and then letting the rest of the case fall through without power. 150 joules in 0.009s would require delivered energy of 16.667 kW. If the unit has to be 20 times bigger than the delivered power, as seems to be the case for air cores, you'd need a 333 kW machine.
That's what I meant by drop through. And I figured it wouldn't be feasible, for the home annealer anyway.

My power bill would be insane with that set up lol...

Looks like I have a new toy to build for my man cave! The next issue is what lp's to play while I'm building it!
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Old November 30, 2016, 07:10 PM   #67
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Again, I made an annealing machine, the first thing I did was think about it. And then I decided there were factors and rules. One rule was about heating the case head; don't do it.

And then there is that thing about knowing where to tap.

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Old November 30, 2016, 09:34 PM   #68
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Nhyrum,
My use is to place an optical off center in the feeder tube, right at the case neck in the stack.
Since the tubes run at a slight angle, the necks fall back and clear the sensor, an upside down case doesn't.
Throw about a one second delay timer on it and it will shut annealing or machine drive down so I don't anneal the case head or jam the press.

Flipped rifle cases are rare, but stuff happens...

As for annealing, this really isn't an issue,
The first production annealed I built dropped the case in the coil, landed on a platform that only annealed the neck/shoulder.

The entire process took about 2 seconds,
Case dropped, photo eye detected it & started timer,
Case timed out and platform dropped case,
Another case dropped onto platform and process started again.

This was with a continuous charged coil that is cooled.
The induction unit I built didn't like cycling, never quite figured out why, not an electrical engineer.

Since Instarted posting about this, people have sent me pictures of former flame annealing rigs converted to electrical, most using ferrite core to focus the magnetic field.

Since I started posting about ferrite cores & cooling, the people that build the 'Annie' have gone to silicon carbide semi-conductors, ferrite 'C' cores & coil cooling...
Probably coincidence, don't you think?

http://www.fluxeon.com/Annie.html
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Old November 30, 2016, 09:44 PM   #69
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The biggest issue with annealing brass is, its a GREAT conductor of electricity, and virtually non-magnetic.
While aluminum is non-magnetic, it's not so good at conducting electricity, so soldering or brazing aluminum is MUCH easier, even though brass & aluminum have similar characteristics.
Most of the common units were intended for soldering/brazing and that's what we get to work with...

An open 'O' or 'C' ferrite kicks these lower powered annealed up about 6 notches, and ferrite is cheap & easy to work with, just don't kink the tubing when winding!
(Freezing water in the tube before you wind is a sneaky shortcut)
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Old November 30, 2016, 09:54 PM   #70
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As for production annealing...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ira3dmlclQ4
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Old November 30, 2016, 10:29 PM   #71
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I will take any help, any parts sources, etc.

Mr. Guffy, zero help.
If you are trying to get a point made, or help with things, I missed it.

Unclenik, you are making sense, just over my head.

This little annealer has the right idea, the drop, in my *Opinion* should have been built sideways instead of forward/backward.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EGfGV8xrfak

Turned sideways the solenoid or motor could drop a case into the annealed when it returned to catch the next case.
Add a case feeder and do a case every few seconds without hand feeding.
It worked for me.

Last edited by JeepHammer; November 30, 2016 at 10:38 PM.
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Old November 30, 2016, 10:32 PM   #72
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This guy is using a 1,200 watt 'Annie',
Less than 1.5 seconds,
And for the guys that go on and on endlessly about overheating the case head,

Notice what he's using to hold the brass...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=axM177JrIBo

Less than 1.5 seconds with 1,200 watts,
I'm running 2,500 watts, so at what point are these people convinced I'm over cooking the case?

The other point is, factory civilian cases at the head are Rockwell B scale somewhere between 70 to 78.
'Half Hard' cartridge brass is about 95, which coincidently most cases that crack are between 95 & 105.

70-75 is Dead Soft for cartridge brass, low brass is 'Dead Soft' between 55-65.

Now, someone with a Rockwell machine PLEASE run a few new, a few split and post results so this doesn't keep cropping up!

Last edited by JeepHammer; November 30, 2016 at 10:47 PM.
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Old November 30, 2016, 11:19 PM   #73
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This shows why I use a relay between power supply and induction unit.
It shows why, but this guy's explanation is incorrect.

This also shows what happens when you run low current through the induction unit, just doesn't get with it...
Volts 30 x Amps 3 = Watts 90

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOYzel8M6eE

Now, notice this is the same induction unit, the cheap China units, watch how long this takes to cook a screwdriver with a 1,000 watt power supply.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1wwlbN-9jsU


Why are these idiots always cooking tools?...
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Old December 1, 2016, 10:53 AM   #74
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Quote:
Mr. Guffy, zero help.
If you are trying to get a point made, or help with things, I missed it.
I knew you would miss the point when I posted and that is OK.

And then there is the thing with 2,500 watts that has got be in the neighborhood of 22 + a few amps, I have a carbon torch that is variable that does not consume that much electricity on maximum and it takes no time to puddle metal. I can wave it over a steak, the difference between very rare and burnt is 1 second.

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Old December 1, 2016, 05:34 PM   #75
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I do not need more welding equipment but I have two Dynos that were destined to be welders. And now? I am not feeling guilty but these Dynos have got to be rare. The last one I saw was in a B29, seems a crew full of drama was attempting to recover a B29 that made a bad landing in Canada/Alaska? For reasons beyond my understanding they placed a generator in the fuselage to powder up a radio. The Radio was a SCR506, when they took off they hit a bump and turned the generator over causing a fire and there the proud old plane remains today. And then there is that other problem, I am having trouble remembering how to wire the Dyno and can not remember where the directions are.

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