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Old November 30, 2009, 10:19 PM   #1
govmule84
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Had a gun stolen...and a question

My 1966 Jetfire.

Some dolt bashed in my truck window to steal my fishy cooler, and helped himself to my gun and a new leather holster for it while he was in there looking around.

Cops were called, no prints were visible...you could see quite clearly he was wearing gloves. No building surveillance.

I bought a new one today, in .22.

Without getting preachy on me for the poor defensive caliber, I broke it in today on about two hundred rounds. Do I want 36 grain copper plated HP's, or 40RNLs? I realize the difference is probably academic, but perhaps someone could offer me some advice as to which could be a more potent SD round.

Gracias!
-L.
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Old November 30, 2009, 10:26 PM   #2
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I think when it comes to .22's IMO ones as good as the next as far as a possible defensive round.But if you have the ability to up grade the caliber
i suggest you do so.A .22 shouldn't be a primary weapon.
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Old November 30, 2009, 10:35 PM   #3
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I'd go with a high velocity FMJ. .22lr JHP's most likely won't have any significant expansion, so I'd go for penetration.
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Old November 30, 2009, 10:36 PM   #4
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.22? Pistol or revolver?

Here are the basic questions to help us answer a bit more sensibly.
Did you buy a pistol or a revolver?
What is the ammo capacity?
Is it SA/DA or DAO?

The biggest factor with a .22 is not so much how big the bullet is, but what type of bullet it is.
For .22 caliber PD you probably want to consider only hollow point bullets.
Between the two I'd certainly recommend the 40 gr. It will have more effect at just about any distance under 25 yds.

The biggest factor in your situation is capacity and accuracy?
A pistol with a 3" barrel is more than likely going to be more accurate than a 2.5" snub nosed .22 revolver, and much less than a 4" revolver.

And, believe it or not the brand should have also been a factor.
Some are much more reliable than others.

That's a start, lets see where it goes.
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Old December 1, 2009, 04:17 AM   #5
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CCI Velocitor would be my choice. it is the load I use in a Manurhin ppk/s and chronographs right at 1,000 fps average
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Old December 1, 2009, 08:13 AM   #6
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The Velocitor is a good round, as is the Mini-Mag.
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Old December 1, 2009, 08:39 AM   #7
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For .22 caliber PD you probably want to consider only hollow point bullets.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but why? The .22 is lacking in penetration to begin with, not to mention that .22s don't expand reliably. It is a bonus when it happens. Your only hope with a .22 is to hit something in the CNS to stop the attack instantly. Your chances of doing that with a .22 are slim enough as is, let alone using JHPs which give you even less penetration.
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Old December 1, 2009, 08:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Did you buy a pistol or a revolver?
What is the ammo capacity?
Is it SA/DA or DAO?
The Beretta 21a/Bobcat/Jetfire/950 series are semis.

The capacity is 7+1.

It is SA/DA.

Quote:
And, believe it or not the brand should have also been a factor.
It was. The Beretta is usually regarded as the best of a mediocre breed.


The Mini-mags are typically what I load for carry with .22, but I put 100 rounds of Federal Bulk Pack through sans hiccup. I switched over to Mini-mags for the next hundred, and two were duds. First time that's ever happened to me - usually that CCI stuff is pretty good. The gun at this point, was admittedly filthy. It also shot a hair high, which is leading me to believe the RNLs might be the way to go - a little more grainage up front might inflict a bit more damage, and drop a little faster, bringing POA back to where it should be.

Again, the difference may be academic, but I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than me had any experience with potent rounds for such an impotent caliber.

-L.
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Old December 1, 2009, 08:38 PM   #9
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So far, so good.

The .22 is really not as impotent as everybody claims. Many a person has been killed by them.
I lost a good friend to an accident with a .22 cal pistol. He tripped going down the stairs and the gun went off when he hit the bottom. It fired and put a bullet into his head. He died instantly. The gun's safety was on when the police recovered the pistol.
Hunters have been shooting large varmints with the .22 since it's invention. It's not so much the bullet size, as it is the amount of powder pushing it out of the gun. the famed .223 is only 55 Gr in bullet weight but it has much more powder behind it.
Bullet placement is the critical factor. You can shoot to kill or shoot to wound.
It's your call how you desire to put down the BG. Whatever you decide, if the need arises, will get the BG's attention or worse.
Trust me, the standard 22 LR round can and does kill.

And I will add IMHO - I highly recommend when the opportunity arises, you get a more powerful handgun.
You can buy a brand new S&W Sigme SW9VE 9mm for as little as $250 after the rebates currently available, or pick one up at a used gun shop for less than that. For slightly more you can get the .40 cal version. Ask your family for one as your Christmas gift!


I'll do a little research on a PD .22 round and get back on this.
I have some friends that specialize in using only .22 LR ammo. Let's see what info I can get from them.
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Last edited by gearchecker; December 1, 2009 at 09:02 PM.
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Old December 1, 2009, 09:23 PM   #10
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I knew it would get down to caliber.

This is the gun I HAVE to carry. I have a 9mm, a .357, a .45...and they all are visible at work, under the right circumstances. I carry them when I am on my personal time, in shoulder or IWB rigs, and I love all of them quite dearly.

I work at a warehouse - people occasionally clap me on the back - shoulder holster is not an option. I bend, climb, and lift all day long. Hip holster is also not an option. Pocket rockets are the ONLY thing that will not get me fired. (Carry is verboten...legal, but not allowed by company policy.)

.380 is a nightmare. I had a Kel-Tec P3AT, and hated it...snappy recoil, nothing to hang on to, and I detested practicing with it. .380 ammo is also punishingly expensive and rare in my neck of the woods these days.

I cannot find anything that carries as well in a pocket that is a similar size...even a J-frame is a lot, lot bigger. This line of Berettas, for me, doesn't print when in a holster, so that's what I am relegated to... a .22 or a .25 in this gun. And that's fine...the few times my piece has been necessary, a .22 was far more comforting that a pocket full of pebbles.

As far as "shooting to wound", I am unfamiliar with that idea. If I need to defend my life, I am going to shoot until whatever is coming at me or my family stops. If it doesn't stop, I'll empty the gun, throw it , and then charge ...something, some way, will stop that attacker eventually.

Let me know what you find out about that .22 ammo. I know it's not a crazy-popular defense round, but you'd think someone came up with something along the way that was significantly better than the existing rounds...
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Old December 1, 2009, 10:11 PM   #11
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I had a Walther P-22 that my wife used for home defense while I was gone because it was the only gun she felt comfortable with. I ended up using CCI Velocitors because:

1.) Functioned well in that particular gun.
2.) Never had a misfire using that brand of ammo.
3.) Heaviest bullet I could find.
4.) Highest FPS for that weight of bullet.

I never used it as my CCW piece because I am comfortable using something larger.

If its gotta be a .22 , thats your best bet in my opinion.
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Old December 1, 2009, 10:27 PM   #12
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So far we all seem to be on the same page.

I have no issues with anybody carrying a .22 for PD.
at least you are planning on protecting what is important to you.

Govmule84, I agree with your point completly.
Having only 1 option for protection is okay if you have no others available.
The .22 is a great conceal carry weapon. This is your thread. I'm just tring to work with you on the best alternative within your means. No harm, no issues. I'm good with where you need this to go.
But - Shooting to maim needs always to be an option. Cap them in the knees and they do go down. Maybe not perminently, but long enough for you to get to a safer or more defendable position.

IED Magnet, I agree with you on the CCI Velocitors so far too. It is a very potent round.
There may yet be other good alternatives, but I haven't found them yet.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm 50+ years old and have had plenty of time to build a collection of service firearms in different calibers that can be used as needed, depending on the need.
My wife has also supported the plan of having multiple guns around the house. We have no children so that's not an issue.
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Old December 2, 2009, 11:16 AM   #13
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As a teen I tested several ordinary LRN loads (38-40 grns) along with CCI Stingers (32 grns). It was the only hypervelocity round I tried, but it penetrated the furthest in plywood. You may want to try something along those lines with other high velocity rounds. And the size of the expanded Stingers was quite impressive (well over 30 caliber). Wood isn't a very good medium though. It seems "ballistic gelatin" isn't hard or expensive to make. I found videos on the internet where people made some. If you have a place in which you could do such I'd suggest trying that to determine which actually performs the best. This way you will get a better idea of what kind of penetration and expansion you can count on.
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Old December 2, 2009, 02:24 PM   #14
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I have a .22 Beretta as well, and while some of the slower bullets may have better penetration, you need the snappy recoil of the mini-mags to feed reliably, I have found. Not much good to have the best load that won't feed from the mag.

Does anyone else get the fired cases right in the nose? Wish I could do something about that...

My .02
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Old December 2, 2009, 02:40 PM   #15
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Stinger -Velocitor is what I would-do use.
Sucks someone broke into my truck a couple days ago and took my gun also.
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Old December 2, 2009, 03:48 PM   #16
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The Velocitor is a nice round but can be hard to find.Remington yellow jackets are also quite nice and are usually what I run through my NAA mini.NAA's website has some pretty good stats on various ammo run through their guns.Check it out.This isn't it however.

http://www.remington.com/products/am...22_rimfire.asp
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Old December 2, 2009, 04:04 PM   #17
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OP

Quote:
I bought a new one today, in .22.

Without getting preachy on me for the poor defensive caliber

First post

Quote:
A .22 shouldn't be a primary weapon.
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Quote:
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but why? The .22 is lacking in penetration to begin with, not to mention that .22s don't expand reliably.
Can't you guys read?
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Old December 2, 2009, 04:09 PM   #18
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get some aguilla subsonic 60 grs.they have tremendous penetration at least through the 2X4s that i mount my targets on,going clear through the 4 in.side,and are extremely accurate.
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Old December 2, 2009, 04:12 PM   #19
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I'd say what ever feed the best in the gun, then your fine.

Winchester 333 bulk feeds really well in my Beretta 21a 22
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Old December 2, 2009, 07:41 PM   #20
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From the reading I have done, Taurus and Beretta seem to categorize .22 ammo into a few categories: sub-sonic, standard, high-speed, and super-velocity.

Subsonic is out. I need the thing to function.
Standard seems to work OK, I guess.
The Minimags fall under the high speed category.

Now, everyone's recommended Velocitors or Raptors to me: But the manufacturers caution against using it. I haven't. I have read plenty of reports of the Tauruses breaking with those rounds, and I cannot help but think that the engineers have taken into consideration a few more things than I can think of.

What say you?
-L.
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Old December 2, 2009, 10:22 PM   #21
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Some people will make the claim that manufacturers caution against super-velocity / hyper-velocity ammunition in a .22 LR pistol (or +P+ or +P ammunition in larger caliber firearms) just for legal protection.

But I agree with the notion that the manufacturers know the design, the capabilities, and the limitations of their guns much better than anyone else.

You often hear complaints about something breaking or not working properly, when the user was not following the manufacturer's guidelines for usage or maintenance printed right in the manual.

If the manufacturer specifically states to use a certain kind of ammunition, or to not use a certain kind of ammunition, I think it is for the best to follow those instructions.
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Old December 2, 2009, 10:47 PM   #22
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It's all a game of CYA shoot what you need to use

The manufacturers are playing a game of CYA.
Any quality handgun from a major manufacturer will easily handle anything that a "Factory Ammo load" can produce.
The recommendation from the less favorable manufacturers will quickly be an indication that their handguns are sub-standard in relation to the higher quality guns.

An occasional "Hyper-Velocity" round put thru a firearm won't be a death sentence to it, under all but the worst built guns.
Much like shooting a 110 or 125 gr. bullet thru my S&W Model 19 or my Model 66. It's not recommended, but I will and do shoot them occasionally for practice.
The 125 Gr. Speer Gold Dot is always loaded in my Model 66 for Protection. Occasional use won't be a problem, except to the BG.
Practice with your normal "Safe to Shoot" ammo, and load the HV's for personal protection. At 5-10 Yards the differences in bullet placement will be less than inches between all of them anyway.
For your personal protection, use the most powerful or most destructive bullet you can. You will never regret that decision.
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Old December 2, 2009, 10:49 PM   #23
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My Chrony showed they lie about the Velociters. Stingers were much more consistent than they have been purported to be! Mini-Mags are the old standby and chrony'd very consistent out of several different guns/barrel lengths.

I would stick with solids over HP's in 22 for SD. Penetration is your friend.

You guys lock them guns up better and be more diligent! The economy is bad and getting worse, thefts are on the rise...Expect it to happen and take steps.

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Old December 2, 2009, 10:54 PM   #24
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I don't get in caliber debates... as I've seen cases where someone was shot and killed with a .22 and .25 (all of them head shots) , versus 5 shots in the face with a .38 who survived it. I wouldn't bet on a .22 for body shots stopping anyone unless you hit something really vital, which has occurred (but on the rare side).

Blazer CCI, Mini-Mag, to get the velocity. Consider a shotgun for home defense.
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Old December 2, 2009, 11:13 PM   #25
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While I don't use a 22 as a defense weapon I have on at least one occasion long ago where I was forced to have it as my only option. In 1967 there was a riot in Detroit where I lived and I only owned a hunting rifle and had no ammo for it. The Sate Government immediately banned all liquor, ammo and gun sales withinn a 90 mile radius of Detroit. My dad loaned me a Remington 552 semi auto rifle and handed me a brick of ammo. I kept it loaded in my apartment and I felt much better then when I didn't have it.

I would feel much more comfortable with a pistol in 22LR then nothing at all and when I travel my girlfriend keeps my 22 semi auto pistol by the bed because it's the only gun she can shoot well. When I'm home there a Sig P226 in 40 S&W by the bed but I feel better with her having the 22 pistol rather then nothing at all.
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