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Old June 24, 2018, 09:54 PM   #1
Model12Win
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Always Be Sure of your Target

Guys this video shows an officer of the law responding to a home call. A dog jumps out and scares the officer, who fires at it. Well a small girl was located behind said dog... the girl is alive, guys, but hurt.

This is another reason to bring up the gun safety rule of always being sure what is on the other side of your target. Just thought I'd share guys.

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Old June 24, 2018, 10:21 PM   #2
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Always good to bring awareness to things like this. Its hard to tell the whole back story of the call but from what I can tell I would have handled this alot different than that LEO, couldn't tell if they were trying to room clear but if so they did a bad job at getting the kids out before the dog came.
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Old June 24, 2018, 11:12 PM   #3
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Wow. I was just getting ready for bed. Now I'm pissed!
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Old June 26, 2018, 12:27 PM   #4
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It is too easy to MM QB this one. Having been attacked by dogs on calls I can say that he acted as trained when dealt with a threat. Without knowing what the circumstances are it is impossible to say what threat level there was. He only fired twice, can't blame him for shooting the dog.

It is not good that he actually missed the dog and struck an innocent and the dog was just protecting the kids. I would like to see the detractors doing any better. This is one of those cases where you can't win.
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Old June 26, 2018, 07:56 PM   #5
stonewall50
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Always Be Sure of your Target

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
It is too easy to MM QB this one. Having been attacked by dogs on calls I can say that he acted as trained when dealt with a threat. Without knowing what the circumstances are it is impossible to say what threat level there was. He only fired twice, can't blame him for shooting the dog.

It is not good that he actually missed the dog and struck an innocent and the dog was just protecting the kids. I would like to see the detractors doing any better. This is one of those cases where you can't win.


Honestly? I grew up in an animal hospital. The owner of said animal hospital wouldn’t let law enforcement go inside unless there was a visible point of entry that was damaged. Loaded gun and scared of dogs? Not the best of ideas if entering a place where dogs do what dogs do: bark.

I think a lot of officers have no clue on how to handle a dog other than just shooting it. They don’t have the experience. The knowledge. Or really? Not to be mean...the care. Can’t really blame them for not understanding a dog. Most dog OWNERS don’t even know dogs that well. But as for responses? I’ve seen a taser work on a cow while riding with that vet. And OC spray sucks for a human. Imagine if your sense of smell is stronger than us? Taser on a dog is a good choice for an officer who has the option. Same with OC.

This incident though? I don’t know the specifics of the call. And that is the crux. And there are kids still standing around. It cant be that big a deal. This response was totally wrong. I watched the dog. That cop reacted like a word that starts with a P. Given that knew the dog was there. Called it out. I can’t really cut him slack unless there was something more threatening than a smallish dog there. Especially since his bullet hit a kid. And again...there were kids still in the house.

A dog that size? It Isn’t going to kill him. He has height. Backup on scene. A baton. OC/taser. Maybe even a blade. A bullet into a kid? That can kill them. And I have been bit. On the face. By a 60 pound bulldog. So I’m not just spouting. This was a bad shoot for sure. Bad tactics. Bad decision making. Punishment? Well. I think shooting a kid and someone’s pet is going to weigh pretty heavily on the poor guy.

And I’d chalk the response up to bad training and tactics. I mean...can I expect the guy to properly negotiate with a hostage taker? Defuse a bomb? Interrogate a murder suspect? Or do more than a first responder level medicine? Not without good training and experience with said training. Personally? I’d rather get bit than shoot a kid.

:shrug:




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Old June 26, 2018, 08:22 PM   #6
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Quote:
I think a lot of officers have no clue on how to handle a dog other than just shooting it.
We do not know what else is going on.

Quote:
I’ve seen a taser work on a cow while riding with that vet. And OC spray sucks for a human. Imagine if your sense of smell is stronger than us? Taser on a dog is a good choice for an officer who has the option. Same with OC.
He made a split second decision, how long did you pontificate your response?

Quote:
This incident though? I don’t know the specifics of the call. And that is the crux. And there are kids still standing around. It cant be that big a deal.
And you say this based on what? I have been to multiple murder scenes and kids are walking through blood pools eating candy.

Quote:
This response was totally wrong. I watched the dog.
Really? the whole second it was in the video?

Quote:
That cop reacted like a word that starts with a P. Given that knew the dog was there. Called it out. I can’t really cut him slack unless there was something more threatening than a smallish dog there.
And that is the rub, we do not know what else was happening.

Quote:
Especially since his bullet hit a kid.
Which is why many of us preach to be sure of your target, what is behind it and not to take low percentage shots. I responded to a domestic and when I responded one guy was hacking another with an axe, I did not shoot him because there were 8 lil faces looking out the picture window behind them.

Quote:
And there were kids still in the house.
There are kids everywhere it seems.

Quote:
A dog that size? It Isn’t going to kill him.
Probably not, but it could cause injury that meets the definition of deadly force.

Quote:
He has height. Backup on scene.
Irrelevant

Quote:
A baton. OC/taser. Maybe even a blade.
He made a startle response, maybe not the right response but he did do something.

Quote:
A bullet into a kid? That can kill them.
You think?

Quote:
And I have been bit.
Me too, by a 100 lb German Shepard.

Quote:
This was a bad shoot for sure.
It was a good shoot, bad shooting.

Quote:
Bad tactics.
VS what? SWAT entry? We do not know the situation.

Quote:
Bad decision making.
He had no time to make a decision, he was provided stimulus and reacted.
With the war on cops you wonder why some are jumpy.

Quote:
Punishment? Well. I think shooting a kid and someone’s pet is going to weigh pretty heavily on the poor guy.
Kid yes, the dog, he was menacing. Protecting his kids, but menacing none the less.

Quote:
And I’d chalk the response up to bad training and tactics.
It was a response, he was trained to react to a threat. You may be the dog whisperer, but most people are not.

Quote:
I mean...can I expect the guy to properly negotiate with a hostage taker? Defuse a bomb? Interrogate a murder suspect? Or do more than a first responder level medicine? Not without good training and experience with said training.
Lack of training rests squarely with the department, not the officer.

Quote:
Personally? I’d rather get bit than shoot a kid.
You and me both, but we were not there.
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Old June 26, 2018, 08:34 PM   #7
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Man on man............this is a no-win situation.
I have to say the cop was too willing to fire, but we don't know what went on before the shots were fired.

Why were they there?

The kids were just walking around as if there was no problem, so it didn't look like a situation the needed deadly force. If the call was in response to "man with a gun" shots fired" "threats with a knife" or something like these, I can see why the cop would be going room to room with a ready firearm.

But the kids walking around like that makes me think the training was WAY deficient, or the cop was not acting according to procedure. In ANY situation where deadly threats are reported or suspected, the 1st order of business would be to get the kids out of the home.

So before we make judgements here I think it's important to look at the reason for the cops to be there in the 1st place, but no matter what, it's not going to be good for the cop who shot. Now it's just a question of "how bad will this get for him"

I can't see any defense for his actions, but there may be some circumstance that would shed light on why he fired in that kind of situation.

"Officer Safety" is NEVER a reason to harm citizens who are not involved. NOT EVER! There have been situations where it's happens and the courts have held that freak accidents can be excused, and cops can be held to have no personal responsibility, but the City, County or State bond will never be "let off". It's VERY VERY rare that such freak accidents can be shown or proven.

In a case like this one, some degree of blame is going to be leveled, from gross negligence at best, to God only knows what at the worst.

He's already lost his job, but I am doubtful that's where it will end for him and there is a possibility or maybe a probability it should not end there.

I will not make any judgement about this because I only have some of the info, but from what the public is shown now, it's not looking good.
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Old June 26, 2018, 09:22 PM   #8
KY_blkout
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I don't think there is much justification here, he was trigger happy and didn't even show much remorse for shooting the kid. Need better training for law enforcement in today's times.
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Old June 26, 2018, 10:20 PM   #9
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Yeah we don't know what the initial call was. I'm a cop. I'm not prepared to defend this. Regardless of the initial call type, the officer knew well numerous kids were about and was walking fairly casually about. I think I see gun drawn in a shadow from his flashlight. I will assume it was some sort of intruder call. Cops don't walk through a house with a pistol drawn for no reason.

All that being said, situational awareness. The guy went back into a room that he had already cleared and KNEW that kids were in. I would've taken the bite with a smile on my face. And used less lethal. Not a good shoot. Too much traffic.
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Old June 26, 2018, 10:55 PM   #10
SonOfScubaDiver
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I don't really care what the excuse is. If he did what he was trained to do then the training itself needs to be examined. He fired because the dog started barking. That's reason enough to discharge a weapon? I don't think so! I hope this family sues and wins a huge settlement.
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Old June 26, 2018, 11:06 PM   #11
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https://www.kansas.com/news/local/cr...213609549.html


The officer has been charged with aggravated battery. The girl was sitting right behind the dog and was hit by bullet fragments that ricocheted from the floor when he fired. The cops were there because the father had threatened to commit suicide, but he was outside with his hands up when the police arrived.
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Old June 27, 2018, 06:47 AM   #12
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"The cops were there because the father had threatened to commit suicide, but he was outside with his hands up when the police arrived."

BAD COP, no reason what so ever to be waving his gun around.
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Old June 27, 2018, 06:51 AM   #13
Bartholomew Roberts
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From the description in the last link, the officer didn’t miss the target and hit the girl. He missed the target, the bullet splattered and the girl caught a jacket fragment in the face. If a bullet strikes a hard surface at close range, that can happen even to the person pulling the trigger. I know it has happened to me on several occasions when training, that’s why I am a big fan of eye protection.

As far as “Did the dog need to be shot?”, I’d say no. Officers currently have a lot of latitude to shoot dogs. The more incidents like this make the news, the less latitude they are going to have. I’m not sure what his department’s policies are but I imaginr he is having a talk with someone about why his gun was even out in the first place.

Not suprisingly, normal people who aren’t living lifestyles that get police invited to their house to solve problems they can’t solve get very upset when they imagine an officer coming onto their property and shooting their beloved household pet. The fact that he injured a child bystander as well makes it even more horrible. Those people will be too happy to support laws restricting officers because they are imagining these events in the context of their own lives, not in the context they often occur.
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Old June 27, 2018, 11:49 AM   #14
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Why weren't the kids freaking out until the shot was fired, when the dog was peeing on himself?

I wanna barf.
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Old June 27, 2018, 12:17 PM   #15
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At 40 seconds the officer clearly acknowledged the presence of the dog. At 42 seconds the dog barked. At 43 seconds the officer shot. I'd say that officer better be lawyered up, he's going to need it.
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Old June 27, 2018, 05:50 PM   #16
stonewall50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
We do not know what else is going on.



He made a split second decision, how long did you pontificate your response?



And you say this based on what? I have been to multiple murder scenes and kids are walking through blood pools eating candy.



Really? the whole second it was in the video?



And that is the rub, we do not know what else was happening.



Which is why many of us preach to be sure of your target, what is behind it and not to take low percentage shots. I responded to a domestic and when I responded one guy was hacking another with an axe, I did not shoot him because there were 8 lil faces looking out the picture window behind them.



There are kids everywhere it seems.



Probably not, but it could cause injury that meets the definition of deadly force.



Irrelevant



He made a startle response, maybe not the right response but he did do something.



You think?



Me too, by a 100 lb German Shepard.



It was a good shoot, bad shooting.



VS what? SWAT entry? We do not know the situation.



He had no time to make a decision, he was provided stimulus and reacted.
With the war on cops you wonder why some are jumpy.



Kid yes, the dog, he was menacing. Protecting his kids, but menacing none the less.



It was a response, he was trained to react to a threat. You may be the dog whisperer, but most people are not.



Lack of training rests squarely with the department, not the officer.



You and me both, but we were not there.

So it is a lot easier to respond to this in a block. So we do know what is going on now BUT...we still have enough based on the video to make some judgement calls. Especially if you look at this from the perspective of a jury or unbiased observer. Especially if you are generally in favor of the profession of law enforcement and what it represents (I am).

So. How long did it take me to make my decision? About the length of time it took me to view the video. It was pretty clear what happened. I know what you are trying to do, but the fact is that I had plenty of evidence from the video alone. And was able to make my call within that span and confirmed that view with the additional evidence provided. There are children present, officers are relaxed, kids are walking around, officers are not getting kids out of the scene, and the general vibe of the video is that the officers don’t appear to be searching for a violent murderer with puddles of blood in the crime scene (confirmed that the man who called for suicide was outside).

The dog? The dog jumped at him. It barked. It didn’t look like it was trying to bite him. And he may be as fast as Raylan Givens...but that dog would have been on him if it wanted to bite him. And if it did? Well we know it couldn’t kill him. It isn’t s 60 pound bulldog or a 100 pound GSD. And if we are passing judgement? Well since it can’t present lethal force to him and even grievous bodily harm? That isn’t worth the life of a child. If he thinks his leg is worth the life of a kid? I’m sorry. I’d trade 4 of his lives for a kid. I’d trade my own life for a kid.

If we are preaching be sure of your target? Well kids behind a non lethal threat sure as Hell matters man. Bad shoot. He made a bad decisions based on poor training and experience due to a bad policy that gives a lot of latitude for shooting a pet. And the shot itself? Was not a good one. Final call? He made the decision. That is on him. Not the department. But the bad training is on the department. City pays out the nose. For good reason.

This isn’t anti cop nonsense. This purely observation. You can disagree. That is your right. But it seems that the facts are leaning towards it being a bad shoot. I like cops. Got family in the field. But I like kids more.

Ps

Was that a dig at my use of the word tactics? What? Do you think that is the wrong word? Why?


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Old June 27, 2018, 10:34 PM   #17
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putting that into a slightly different perspective. If he had hit and killed the dog and missed the kid, would that have been alright?

The dog was aggressive, but wasn't obviously going to attack. Dogs bark a lot, and they tend to get into close proximity when they do.

Everything I ever hear or read about legal shooting in self defense holds one key thing: there must be a clear threat of grievous harm or death. I don't see that, not at all, and right there he lost his badge, imo.

There are people who are going to yell at me that the guy shouldn't let a dog bite him, that he was completely right to put it down, and that the kid was a terrible accident.

Dog bite? that thing wouldn't have killed or maimed him. Not at that size. not with his weapons and backup. He was not in obvious risk of death.

What if the kid had come running up screaming with a brick? would he have drawn his gun and shot the kid? No. Don't cops get the living crap beaten out of them day after day, without shooting people?

He was scared by a dog. He believed that it was going to attack him. He could have let the thing go after his leg, IF it did, and not fire into a room full of kids, but he didn't.

He shouldn't have shot the dog anyway, there isn't evidence enough that he was in serious danger. Firing at the dog with a kid right behind it was criminal negligence at best. hitting the kid with a bullet fragment is no different than a heart shot, he threw bullets right into a room with kids, one of which was on the other side of the dog.

It seems pretty clear to me that he should never have been released for this kind of duty. He is required to stay on guard at all times, be ready for anything, that gets tough.

He didn't know about the dog? what he heck? nobody told them, he didn't get the memo, didn't see it as he came through? He didn't have absolutely essential information, reacted poorly to a threat, and failed to consider the likelihood of secondary injuries.
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Old June 28, 2018, 07:17 AM   #18
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Was that a dig at my use of the word tactics? What? Do you think that is the wrong word? Why?
No dig, we just do not agree. Understand, I am not saying at all what was done was "good" and I am not defending anyone, I just do not think it rises to the level of criminal
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Old July 4, 2018, 06:24 PM   #19
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I don't think this situation has anything to do with "being sure of your target". This seems to be an issue of poor judgment. I suspect that the Department will likely end up paying a good bit of $$$ but I don't think they will convict him of anything criminal.
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