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Old March 22, 2010, 07:02 PM   #1
Come and take it.
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Question on local laws.

Hunting was banned at a city lake of ours that exist out in the county. It is not in city limits. Hunting has been allowed for decades out their so long as you used rimfires or shotguns. I suppose nothing can be done about this one.

However a sign says you cannot bring a high powered rifle onto the lake area. Now I have no intention to fire a high powered rifle on lake property but I am a bit concerned on how you can make it illegal to bring a firearm onto public land (even if it is in your vehicle) when it does not violate state or federal laws. There are no government structures on the grounds. It is owned by the city via the taxpayers.

A nearby park in town near a creekfront has a no-firearms sign as well as other newly made up rules on visitors to the park. Does this mean it is illegal for me to visit that park if I have a concealed carry permit and have a pistol concealed on me? Again the park has no administrative structures on it related to managing the city.

These new laws have been cooked up since the end of last year.

Neither public area is near a school.

This is in Central Kentucky. My town has only about 3000 people in it. It is surrounded by rural countryside dotted by the occasional subdivision.

The lake in question does not have any new construction of houses taking place anywhere near it.
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Old March 22, 2010, 09:13 PM   #2
Don H
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Simple: Ask the appropriate city/town department what ordinance allows them to restrict firearms at those locations. Another option would be to ask the city attorney.
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Old March 22, 2010, 09:34 PM   #3
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wouldnt a local ordnance be trumped by State laws?
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Old March 22, 2010, 10:28 PM   #4
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Only if there is a state law stating they are. That is not the case in every state. In Ohio we have such a law and some jurisdiction just ignore it anyways(Cleveland). Locals arrest/charge you, it goes to court, a very long court battle ensues at great expense to you, then the supreme court of your state or whatever HOPEFULLY overthrows the local ordinance.

Good luck on that process.
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Old March 22, 2010, 10:50 PM   #5
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Local Ordinances are never trumped by State Law.

Here in Kentucky they have a KRS # or Kentucky Revised Statute, and the following numbers identify the county of the ordinance. The state can make a law, and the counties can revise it to meet their needs.
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Old March 22, 2010, 11:04 PM   #6
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If this is true than my CCWP is not worth the ink it was printed on.

The State says where I can carry a gun and where I cannot carry a gun. It seems pretty simple to me.

If this is true than my city could basically outlaw firearms througout the whole town except when they are on my property.

If the local law does conflict with the state law on where I can carry a gun than I wanted to know if I could bring up the issue to the city and have some type foundation to stand on.


refer to KRS 237.115

The state says it is not a crime. Also the creekfront park I am referring too is right next to a state highway and follows it for 3/4 of a mile. So I would think it would be akin to a highway rest area.

also refer to krs 65.870

65.870 Local firearms control ordinances prohibited.
No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.
Effective: July 13, 1984
History: Created 1984 Ky. Acts ch. 42, sec. 1, effective July 13, 1984.

Last edited by Come and take it.; March 22, 2010 at 11:24 PM.
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Old March 23, 2010, 09:24 AM   #7
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65.870 Local firearms control ordinances prohibited.
No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.
Please note that this law does not address discharging firearms. My familiarity with KY state law is just about zero, but TX and numerous other states have laws allowing counties and municipalities to regulate the discharge of firearms under certain conditions. In other words, you can possess it, you can carry it, but you may not be allowed to fire it.

However, if the signs clearly say that you cannot carry guns in that location, I agree that it seems to fly in the face of state law. I would meet with the city attorney and politely ask what statute gives the city authority to do this.

BTW you should check two other things first:
  1. Is the lake actually owned by the city or the county? Some parks are owned by private entities and operated by a city or county government under some sort of lease or contract. If this is the case, the private owner may have decided to ban firearms; if so, you probably have no recourse because it is a matter of private property rights.
  2. Does KY have laws giving municipalities the authority to declare extraterritorial jurisdiction (ETJ)? If so, the city can declare areas outside of city limits as their future expansion area without actually annexing it. The city can enforce certain regulations in their ETJ but not others, and this authority should be detailed in the state laws.
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Old March 23, 2010, 11:38 AM   #8
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Some times it feels like David fighting Goliath

Does anyone else feel the frustration I feel about gun owner's rights being trampled and mangled at every turn:

- this thread, where it appears that county and states create new ordinances to preclude gun owners from carrying in more and more places

- employers, in apparent violation of but with authorities turning a blind eye to, banning guns on premises and in vehicles on premises

- county governments purposefully and in total violation of the law, make legal citizens seeking GFLs go through an exaggerated and long drawn out waiting processes before issuing or renewing licenses.

There are so many other examples that one could go on and on.

It just seems like "you can't fight city hall" was directed at the legal gun owner.
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Old March 24, 2010, 04:17 PM   #9
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Rules, regs, and laws...

Stating where you can hunt, or shoot, do not violate our rights as gunowners.

Rules concerning private property don't either, except in some people's minds, they do.

Rules covering what you can own, posess and carry, do, IMHO.

However, no right is absolute. This is a fundamental concept in our society. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, etc.

Its complicated situation. Near me is a park (its desert, but they call it a park) a mile from our range. The park is posted "No Firearms". I feel that is wrong. They would be entirely correct to post it "No discharge of firearms allowed", but not "No Firearms", again, in my opinion.

For some reason, our public officials just cannot make the distinction between the mere posession of arms (for personal protection, mainly), and the use (discharge) of arms for recreation. SO, they put up signs saying NO FIREARMS, when what they ought to do is post NO Shooting.

Also, one often hears of a situation where someone defends themselves, and while exonerated of the shooting, gets charged with "discharging a firearm within...." There ought to be an exemption for that, but often isn't.

Call/contact the city attorney and ask what ordinance/regulation/law gives them the authority to post it the way they have. I know of one case, where after a few years of arguing, one city park which was posted NO Firearms was finally forced to change the sign, as legal CCW was allowed under state law, and the state does have a no local preemption law. It took a while, but in the end, it was done.

Also, it was mentioned something about a highway. There are usually regulations about being able to shoot within a certain number of feet from a public road. Perhaps someone measured the distance and determined the park was too close to the highway. A situation that could have existed, and been ignored for decades. IF thats the case, then they are technically correct to ban hunting in that area, even though they never did before.
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