Is this a legal shotgun?

[cdoc42]

A friend has a H&R Model 48 12 GA shotgun that was used by a PA Narcotics officer in drug raids. It has a 13-inch barrel. Is it legal? If not, what to do with it? Research indicates it's worth $101.00 but who can buy it?

[Bill DeShivs]

If the gun is registered with BATF as a short barrel shotgun-it's legal. Otherwise, no.
Nor was it legal for the officer. If you remove the barrel, and dispose of it or destroy it, the frame again becomes legal. Parts are available for these guns.

[Hawg]

What Bill said. Why would a narcotics officer use a single shot on drug raids?

[44 AMP]

Not sure what PA requires, Federal law says 18" barrel and 26" overall or its an NFA item.

Why would a narcotics officer use a single shot on drug raids?

My guess would be because he had it and found it useful. Probably something he picked up in a drug raid, and just hung on to, and since he was a narcotics cop no one made him turn it in.

A sawed off single shot is still an impressive item, might be he kept it for the intimidation factor, or maybe as a "prop" for undercover work....or perhaps as a drop gun that never got dropped....

Only that cop can tell you why he had it, but with that short a barrel, generally speaking, its not legal for regular folks unless its registered with the ATF.

[rmh3481]

Some of you guys may be familiar with the 'Shockwave' style of Personal Defense Weapon made by Mossberg. Notice that they are not called 'Shotguns'. This weapon was allowed by the ATF as a personal defense weapon and it was sold over the counter like any other title one rifle, pistol or shotgun. Remington also made them in the 870 pump version and as well as a Tac 13 semi auto version. Again, not called shotguns. You can still buy a new one so at least Mossberg has kept up with demand.

Here is a link; https://www.mossberg.com/firearms/others/shockwave.html

As long as the gun your talking about has the 'Birds Head' grip on it, it would be the same as the ones still selling today. If the gun has a pistol grip on it, it could be an NFA shotgun which would require a transfer tax and related. Barrel length's for the shock wave tend to be around a foot, its the grip that the ATF looks for.

[cdoc42]

rmh3841, from what I've seen, the grip on this looks like the "Birds Head" on those Mossbergs, perhaps personally decorated with a PA insignia on the base of the grip.

From what 44AMP suggested, I doubt he picked it up from a raid because the grip base PA logo had to be added professionally. It looks like it was "his" gun. And, regarding AMP's note, I doubt it is "sawed off" unless my inquiry for a current value on an H&R Model 48 ignored the 13" barrel length.

Should I advise my friend to keep and "hide" it....report it to BATF....try to sell it to a dealer who will accept it? The Narcs officer died and his wife gave it to my friend.

[Bill DeShivs]

The H&R 48 was not made with a 13" barrel. Perhaps it got wet and shank-or perhaps it was cut off.

Read my post again.

The gun with a barrel less than 18" and an overall length less than 26" is contraband. The only way to make it legal- for ANYONE is to remove the barrel and destroy it. No dealer will accept it.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by rmh3481

As long as the gun your talking about has the 'Birds Head' grip on it, it would be the same as the ones still selling today. If the gun has a pistol grip on it, it could be an NFA shotgun which would require a transfer tax and related. Barrel length's for the shock wave tend to be around a foot, its the grip that the ATF looks for.

What makes the Shockwave legal is overall length is over 26 inches.

[44 AMP]

Guns like the H&R Topper have been made and sold in large numbers by several gunmakers over the last 120 years +. H&R, Iver Johnson, even Winchester to name a few. IJ and H&R have basically ruled the budget end of the market for a good century or more, sold under their own names, or trade names for various retailers such as Western Auto, Sears, Wards, and others.

To the best of my knowledge they were nearly always sold as sporting guns, with full stocks and sporting length barrels. The guns were mostly cheap field grade budget guns, and a decent value for the low cost.

Prior to 1968 they weren't required to have a serial number, but most did. Have your friend check the gun he has for a serial#. IF the gun never had a serial # then its probably a pre-68 gun and legal without a serial number.

HOWEVER, if it ever had a serial number and that number has been removed, or defaced, that violates Federal law and the gun is illegal and can not be legally owned, even if it meets all other legal criteria.

The ATF has made some exceptions for FACTORY PRODUCED short shotguns, but does not, as far as I know, for any guns altered from a long gun to a short one by anyone else but the maker.

Any decent woodworker can make a "birdshead" grip from the original wooden buttstock, and could even mount a PA emblem or any other similar item provided to them on the stock. Any decent smith can shorten the barrel, and even remount the bead sight, and before 1934, this was totally legal and completely unrestricted.

Should I advise my friend to keep and "hide" it....report it to BATF....try to sell it to a dealer who will accept it? The Narcs officer died and his wife gave it to my friend.

Based on the information provided, I believe the gun would be an NFA item, not legal to own without ATF registration and tax stamp.

Advising your friend to "hide it" would be advising him to knowingly and willfully break the law. Don't do that.

Trying to sell it to a dealer would be, I think, an exercise in frustration, and possibly involve some legal jeopardy. No ethical dealer will accept it as is, because its is clearly not legal without the ATF stamp and paperwork.

Your friend can contact the ATF and see what they require (most likely surrender the weapon for destruction). If your friend wants to keep the gun, he needs profession legal advice, from someone experienced in the field.

I have heard of cases where it was allowed for a lawyer to hold the item pending federal approval, but cannot say that would be the case here.

Your friend either needs to surrender the weapon, or contact a lawyer to see if there is a legal path to keeping it. I don't see any other legal option, but I'm not a lawyer.

It might be possible to remove and destroy the barrel and replace the grip with a standard stock and get a replacement legal length barrel, but I'd talk with a firearms lawyer to make certain that was allowed. It ought to be, but when dealing with the complexity of the laws, common sense isn't always legal, it seems.

I'm not a lawyer, this if the best advice I have, and if I'm in error about any of it, I will happily accept correction. Good Luck with your friend's issue.

[totaldla]

The Shockwave is not a shotgun, it is a weapon. If somebody Shortens a Shockwave to less than 26", it becomes an Any Other Weapon - $5 tax stamp and registration.

What you have is a short barrel shotgun - $200 tax stamp and registration.

[Hawg]

To make a short barreled shotgun you have to contact the ATF and pay the taxes and registration before you cut it down. You can't pay the taxes on one already cut down.

[Bill DeShivs]

Just so you know, the tax for making an "Any Other Weapon" is $200. The transfer fee is $5 if it is sold after registration.

The frame on the OP's gun is perfectly legal without the short barrel, and without a stock. It's simply a shotgun receiver.

[cdoc42]

I contacted my friend and shared the greatly appreciated opinions and advice herein received. I accompanied him to my well-respected local gun store. After the store owner's review and advice, we watched as he dismantled the gun, knocked out the retaining pins, and used a vise to reduce the diameter of both ends of the barrel. He added the whole works to a container holding trashed parts and my friend was satisfied having lost about $100 while saving the possibility of 10 years in jail and up to a $250,000 fine.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Just so you know, the tax for making an "Any Other Weapon" is $200. The transfer fee is $5 if it is sold after registration.

The frame on the OP's gun is perfectly legal without the short barrel, and without a stock. It's simply a shotgun receiver.

Thank you for the correction

[Dfariswheel]

Cops often have guns they really shouldn't have.
This is something an old homicide cop from a tough mid-western town told me.

He was sent to New York city for something to do with a wanted fugitive and met up with an NYPD narcotics squad.
They were busy impressing the rube from the sticks and showed him a sawed off double barrel 12 gauge shotgun they'd taken from a drug house and decided to keep as an entry gun.

The rube cop looked over the double they were so proud of and had been using for years on high risk drug raids.
The rube cop asked them how long they'd been using a shotgun that had no firing pins.

He said faces turned absolutely white.

[bamaranger]

Interesting to me because, in my jr. high days, a kid I played football with had a father that worked in the enforcement side of the PA Liquor Control Board (PLCB). One night while talking guns and hunting, the father produced a short barreled double one while I was visiting and declared it his "work" shot gun. If memory serves, (hey, it was over 60 ys ago and I was a kid) he said it was a 10 gauge. I have no idea how long the barrels were, but way shorter than any of my family's hunting shotguns.

Maybe it was a "thing" with PA law enforcement back in the day.

[44 AMP]

when I was a boy, my Grandfather would tell stories of someone he knew when he was a young man, a one armed railroad "cop" who's weapon was a sawed off 10ga double barrel made into a pistol.

In a career that spanned a couple of decades on both sides of 1900, he never had fire it, even once!

Of course, back in those days, there were NO laws determining what a gun could, or couldn't be.

[DT Guy]

Can confirm that even local cops often...um, 'disregard' gun laws and suffer no particular repercussions.

Of course, that's only true until they're used in an incident that gets media or judicial attention, at which point being a police officer is often of surprisingly little help.

Larry