Protester shot in Austin (TX)

[TXAZ]

A motorist in Austin shot and killed a protester moving toward his car.
With Travis’ County DA’s inference of all citizens with guns are evil, this will go to trial, what’s the chance for a fair trial?
Several complications listed in the article (and others) add to the issues.

Here is one of several articles:
https://www.statesman.com/news/20200...austin-protest

Virtually guaranteed to be high profile in Texas, paraphrasing the previous governor, ‘where the left-wing kingdom of Austin sits’)

[Machineguntony]

I’m withholding my opinion until more details come out.

But based on preliminary footage, it may seem like the driver acted in self defense. There’s no way to know until more facts come out.

Here is footage of the deceased stating that he was carrying an AK.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status...s-car-video%2F

Here is footage right before the shooting. You can hear what sounds like five ‘larger’ rounds followed by three ‘smaller‘ rounds. Some people are speculating that these are rifle versus pistol rounds, but I don’t know.

https://youtu.be/qFJO2L_kJr4

[langenc]

Protestors or RIOTERS??? Dont fall into that trap.

[JohnKSa]

Pretty good bet that somewhere there is video of the incident. It's possible that it's justified, it's possible that it's not. We won't know until more evidence comes out.

That aside, I'm thinking that if my travels at 9-10pm on Saturday night were going to take me through an area where protest/riot was likely, I would rearrange my route, at the least, and maybe just stay home if that wasn't feasible. Not because I should have to take that kind of nonsense into account when I plan an outing, but because I think the hassle of replanning my route or changing my plans is a lot less than the hassle of dealing with the aftermath of shooting someone.

By the way, there's another lesson to be learned. People tend to assume that they know how a scenario is going to play out. Things often don't go as planned and it's important to understand that.

I doubt the person who decided to drive through the protest/riot thought he would end up at the police station that night.

And I know that Mr. Foster (the protester who was shot) experienced at least a brief moment of surprise. Here's a quote he made when someone asked him why he was carrying a rifle:

https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/garrett-foster/

"I think all the people that hate us and want to say ^%$# to us are too big of &^%$#@* to stop and actually do anything about it.”

Be careful about making assumptions and then betting your life on them.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Apparently, the protesters form up at the police hq but march in different areas. And since it the center of the city, it affects the people who live or work there. Basically, if you are downtown any time between 1pm and 3am, you may run into a protest, which if you live or work there is a big chunk of time to avoid. All though the guy telling me that said the protests have been moving moreto evening due to the heat.

The police just reported it doesn’t appear the dead person fired any rounds; but one of the other protesters fired three rounds and the driver fired five: https://www.kvue.com/article/news/lo...-sixth-street/

[JohnKSa]

Yes, if you work there, it would be a very unpleasant situation. As discussed in the other thread on the general topic in S&T, you can easily get into a situation where there's no good solution for getting out of it.

I can avoid the downtown area of any large city virtually indefinitely. I understand there are some who don't have that option--or at least some for whom the decision is much harder to make.

[ghbucky]

I'm seeing so many different version, and some contradictory, as to what happened that we may well see another Ferguson situation where 'witnesses' give statements to inflame the situation.

I've read he approached the car with the rifle pointed at the ground and that he pointed the rifle at the car. Also, the shooter shot through his window, that he extended his hand out the window and the he got out of the car to shoot.

[JohnKSa]

Possible video of the shooting on this link.

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status...79078186205184

You can't see much and there's no sound (looks like it's from a dashcam), but at about 0:29 in the video, a dark colored car turns right on red into the crowd in front of the car that has the dashcam.

The crowd swarms to the vehicle (at about 0:35) and then, after a couple of seconds, runs away from it (at about 0:40).

No visibility of either the man with the rifle or the actions of the person in the vehicle.

This image purports to be of the immediate vicinity of the car right before the shooting. I can't vouch for its authenticity.



What can be seen of the rifle (not much) and the man holding it (also not much) are generally consistent with other pictures of Garret Foster and his rifle from earlier in the day.

For those who watched the video where only the gunshots are audible and there is no visibility of the vehicle, you heard 5 shots, followed after a significant pause, by 3 more shots which sounded noticeably different. A protester is claiming on social media to have fired those 3 shots at the car as it left the scene. The police are also stating that a protester fired at the vehicle after the fatal shooting.

At this time, based on the currently available information (and a lot of it is pretty shaky) this is what appears to have happened.


Driver was stopped at a light waiting on protesters to pass.
Driver turned right on red into the protest.
Protesters swarmed the vehicle.
Based on one (unverified) image, it appears that Foster was one of the protesters that swarmed the vehicle and he approached the car with a rifle that was either shouldered or held in a low ready with the stock up flat against the shoulder.
Driver shot 5 times, killing Foster.
Protesters "unswarmed" vehicle.
Driver drove away.
Protester fired 3 shots at the vehicle as it was leaving.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

Apparently, the protesters form up at the police hq but march in different areas. And since it the center of the city, it affects the people who live or work there. Basically, if you are downtown any time between 1pm and 3am, you may run into a protest, which if you live or work there is a big chunk of time to avoid. All though the guy telling me that said the protests have been moving moreto evening due to the heat.

The police just reported it doesn’t appear the dead person fired any rounds; but one of the other protesters fired three rounds and the driver fired five: https://www.kvue.com/article/news/lo...-sixth-street/

The link doesn't work (404 - page not found) but, as a rule, if I'm trapped in a riot and someone starts shooting at me, anyone holding a rifle is within my rules of engagement. In a situation like that, I don't have any friends outside of my vehicle.

[JohnKSa]

Based on the video, the first of the three shots were fired approximately 5 seconds after the last shot of the 5 shots allegedly fired by the driver.

Assuming that the initial 5 shots were fired by the driver (as stated by police) and the second group of 3 shots were fired by another protester (as stated by police and claimed by a protester on social media) it does not appear that those 3 shots could possibly justify the initial shooting.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Assuming that the initial 5 shots were fired by the driver (as stated by police) and the second group of 3 shots were fired by another protester (as stated by police and claimed by a protester on social media) it does not appear that those 3 shots could possibly justify the initial shooting.

I agree.

But -- to a driver trapped in his car, IF a bunch of protesters were banging on his car it might have sounded like gunshots hitting the car. Then you look out the window and you see a guy with an AK-47 -- maybe he's carrying it at the low ready, maybe he's pointing it at the car. Low ready could certainly look -- to a trapped, scared driver -- like it was pointing at the car. If I think I'm being shot at, or about to be shot at ... like it or not, anyone with a firearm is a target. That's not armchair commando talk, that's basic psychology.

[ghbucky]

those 3 shots could possibly justify the initial shooting.

Someone aiming a rifle at him certainly would, though!

[JohnKSa]

I would think that it certainly could. It's not clear from the one unverified/grainy image that the rifle was actually being pointed at the driver. It looks more like it's being held with the muzzle pointed more downward. But (assuming that's even a real picture of the incident) it's just one moment in time out of a dynamic situation.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Currently, it isn’t entirely clear that the driver even fired the shots that killed the man, though that seems likely.

From the accounts I’ve watched, it looks like the protesters had broken up into two groups over the course of their march, with one moving slower. The driver may have done a right on red as the vanguard passed, not realizing he was driving into a second group.

[JohnKSa]

I think that it's likely more video and photographic evidence will surface. Hopefully that will make it clear what happened--one way or the other.

[TXAZ]

Cleary a tragedy regardless of how the details come out. But lunch says Travis County DA Moore will try to make this a major liberal agenda (anti-gun) case.

We'll see.

[JohnKSa]

I'd say out of all of this mess, that's probably the thing that's least in doubt.

[50 shooter]

Even if the guy was carrying at a low ready, sitting in a car would look like the rifle was being pointed at him.

Protesting and carrying a firearm at this point in history is a bad idea for either side! There is so much built up tension that situations like this will happen. The bad thing is, these idiots (protesters) seem to be pushing for something like this to happen. I think it's apparent that they want this to happen so that it sets off a war!

Guess they forgot that you don't come back from death! For everyone that dies in these situations, these protesters should be charged with murder!

I'm 100% pro 2A and think that people have the right to carry, regardless if you have a permit or not. The problem that I have is this, these people are going for one reason only and that's to start sh!+! Then carry a firearm so that when the SHTF, they can start shooting and then run off. So yeah, I think that NO ONE on either side should be allowed to carry at these events!

That way we don't have to worry about some anti gun DA, Governor.... getting face time about banning firearms because of idiots like these. The same idiots whose only reason for being there was to cause trouble!

I will hold off on any other comments about the situation until we have all of the info about the whole issue.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, so far police have released both of the shooters after they gave a statement. The Travis County DA lost her primary run off to someone further left on the spectrum and so, she’ll be out of office by November. She may leave this matter for whoever wins the general election in November.

However, even if not charged, the driver likely has real concerns about being doxxed, fired from his job, protested at his home, everything he’s ever written on social media being analyzed, etc. He has a long and unpleasant road ahead even before legal fees, indictments, etc.

[WyMark]

However, even if not charged, the driver likely has real concerns about being doxxed, fired from his job, protested at his home, everything he’s ever written on social media being analyzed, etc. He has a long and unpleasant road ahead even before legal fees, indictments, etc.

A reasonably intelligent person may have factored some of those issues in before aggressively driving into the middle of a protest, for no clear reason other than to drive into the middle of a protest. Can't say I'm all that concerned with how much his life is going to suck going forward.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, I’ve no idea what the driver was thinking. I can see how he may not have realized he was driving into a protest rather than past one if he was busy watching the crowd that just passed in front of him.

But the decedent had been out there every night for the last 51 nights protesting. The same crowd was out there blaming police for the decedent’s death again last night. Roughly 7,000 people live in that zip code. The protesters are around 150-200?

If a group of strangers making up about 2% the population of your neighborhood had been randomly blocking traffic for 12 hours a day and shouting in the streets until 3am, how many days would it take for your neighbors to start behaving rashly?

On another note, there are a lot of crimes that are relatively minor if you are unarmed that can become very serious if you are armed. If you are going to be armed while practicing civil disobedience, you are setting yourself up for some very serious legal charges.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

On another note, there are a lot of crimes that are relatively minor if you are unarmed that can become very serious if you are armed. If you are going to be armed while practicing civil disobedience, you are setting yourself up for some very serious legal charges.

The evidence suggests that you may be setting yourself up for more than just some very serious legal charges.

Semantically, I might also propose that going armed is more or less contrary to the concept of civil disobedience.

[ghbucky]

As the NFAC ND incident in Louisville demonstrates, just being around someone openly carrying weapons in a protest is a high risk endeavor.

[TomNJVA]

Can't speak for other states, but it appears that some of the activities by the armed protesters would be illegal in Virginia: (emphasis added)

§ 18.2-433.2. Paramilitary activity prohibited; penalty.
A person is guilty of unlawful paramilitary activity, punishable as a Class 5 felony, if he:

1. Teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder;

2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

3. Violates subsection A of § 18.2-282 while assembled with one or more persons for the purpose of and with the intent to intimidate any person or group of persons.

and

§ 18.2-405. What constitutes a riot; punishment.
Any unlawful use, by three or more persons acting together, of force or violence which seriously jeopardizes the public safety, peace or order is riot.

Every person convicted of participating in any riot shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

If such person carried, at the time of such riot, any firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon, he shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

[ghbucky]

So, according to VA law you cannot lawfully prepare your household for civil disorder? That's quite the stretch there. Anyone trying to prosecute on that has to prove what the defendant was thinking. Has anyone ever been convicted under those statutes?