Firearms starting forest fires

[FiveInADime]

Originally Posted by kilimanjaro

" I wonder what kind of trouble he's looking at given that they called 911 and such."

He can call 911 all day long, he still used an incendiary round on a National Forest and started a wildfire. He's going to be cited under federal law and regulations, and be subject to cost recovery for the suppression of the fire.

They mentioned a possibility of six-months in prison but I assume it would be up to a judge? I doubt they can hang the entire actual cost of the fire on the guy. Most of us wouldn't be able to cover that in ten lifetimes.

A question about those "dragon's breath" shells: Are those sold at gun shops/shows? I have never heard of them. Is it illegal to discharge those on USFS land at any time? I know I may get flamed for this (no pun int.) but here goes: Is it just me or are exploding targets, tracer rounds, incendiary rounds, ect. Getting a bit out of hand? I, personally, am not one who would spend money on such things, and I surely don't want to say that responsible people who are interested in these things shouldn't be able to use them in a legal and safe manner, but the idiots are out there making a mess with them. Just like the guys hauling TV screens out in the desert to shoot at and leave laying around. They're going to ruin it for all of us who want to shoot on public land. I don't know of any ranges where I can easily have the chance to practice 300-500 yard shots. I hope it never comes down to losing our right to shoot responsibly for free on our public lands. That would be a real crappy situation if you ask me.

Sent From My Galaxy S 4g Using Tapatalk

[kilimanjaro]

Five, good evening.

Yes, it's illegal to use tracer, incendiary, or other explosive ammo or devices on any National Forest, at any time. No exceptions.

No, it isn't just you, their use is getting out of hand. The shooting public has changed in the last couple of decades.

Lastly, don't doubt for a minute the Gov't won't go after the full cost of fire suppression when the miscreant is caught. They will get a judgement for the amount, and then generally settle with your insurance. No insurance, expect to pay a stiff percentage of your income for years and kiss any and all tax refunds goodbye.

When a logger or road builder starts a fire with his equipment, we make them pay for it, why not the public?

I've seen too many drainages or even entire watersheds burned over, communities burned out, to care one whit about the careless loser who started it.

[medalguy]

I'm near Albuquerque, and the BLM here is just great. They have designated several areas for shooting, and they maintain the roads in there very well.

Seems like some folks are being smart. Just today I went out onto BLM land to test a new load recipe, and in the past I generally see maybe a half-dozen people shooting, but today there was no one at all anywhere around. I spent about an hour at the sand pit, and never saw anyone else, nor heard anyone else shooting. It's very hot here, and except for a brief rain shower this evening (Thank ypu God) the humidity has been around 8% for teh past couple of weeks. To say it's dry would be an understatement.

I was extremely careful where I was shooting as my property is very near the Las Conchos fire of last year that burned about 150,000 acres of forest, and nearly burned the Los Alamos National Labs.

I think we all need to be extremely careful when shooting. The debate can rage on as to whether or not copper jacketed bullets can start a fire or not, but let's all be very careful.

[HiBC]

post 26 I mention a primitive cigarette lighter that uses the heat of compression to produce a fire,similar to a diesel engine.I searched around a bit,and actually there is an outfit that sells these lighters
http://www.firepiston.com/

I am not plugging them,it just adds credibility to the idea shooting into dry wood could concievably start a smolder with air compressed ahead of the bullet

If we know about it,we can pay attention.

[scrubcedar]

The two fires they are now saying they've confirmed were caused by target shooting are the Millville fire (Logan UT, about 110 acres) and the Dump Fire( Saratoga Springs, about 6000 acres). It appears they have people that have admitted to causing these fires. I'd sure like to get the details but absolutely no one is talking about or admitting to any details which is starting to seem a little fishy. My B.S. detector is starting sound a little bit. If they have confirmed the circumstances why aren't they cautioning us about specific things they know caused these fires?

[Colorado Redneck]

Seem to attract people that like to shoot junk. Take a computor monitor to the public lands, shoot the he!! out of it, and then leave. Or a TV or a stove. Or a bunch of glass.

The need for public shooting ranges in the Front Range area of Northeastern Colorado is recognized. Trails for hiking and mountain biking, areas designated for multiple use such as horses and bikes and hiking are abundant. Shooting on pulic lands draws lots of negative comments from pundits and neighbors that are worried about stray bullets doing the unimaginable. But for some reason, public funding of controlled ranges is just not happening. There was a fairly nice range at the Larimer County Landfill till about 12 years ago. It was inexpesnive and monitored by range masters. The land west of the landfill was developed for big houses and the residents raised cain till the range was closed. Did the county go out and replace that? Nope. Downright discouraging.

[kozak6]

It very well could have been shooters. Even otherwise responsible shooters can accidentally start fires with their catalytic converters on tall grass.

And I know I've had steel jacketed pistol ammo that sparked just like in Hollywood if it hit rocks.

And then there are also smokers, tracer bullets, explosive/inflammable targets, and general irresponsibility. I know I've seen a lot of shot up propane tanks out there.

We've already mentioned that idiot who started the wildfire with Dragon's Breath.

Honestly, I bet shooters accidentally start wildfires all the time.

[rgrundy]

The Az Sunflower fire was caused by a man at his bachelor party shooting. He did admit to starting it by shooting, but I believe that the cause probably should have been listed as alcohol. There are few of the fires that were proven to be caused by shooting for certain. They blamed over 30 of them at first on shooting with no real proof. The fires on the Az Mexico border last year were set by illegals and there was video proof but they backed off from that statement quickly because it was not popular. It's okay to beat up recreational shooters though.
I do believe that shooting does cause sparks because I've seen it at night shoots many times. Same with archery equipment. Actually you can follow the progress of the arrow downrange by watching the sparks in the dark. So yes be careful, better yet join a shooting club.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region...outh-of-payson
http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...PLW_story.html

[PPBart]

My local Bass Pro indoor pistol range had a fire just a few weeks ago -- debris accumulated on the floor, apparent sparks set it on fire. The attendant told me it happens several times a year.

[Double Naught Spy]

It's possible. But unlikely they can be that specific about the cause. It's easy propaganda fodder.

It becomes very likely when shooters are using incendiary ammo, tracer ammo, and/or exploding targets.
http://newsminer.com/view/full_story...w_left_bullets

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...sider-limits/1

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...sider-limits/1

Yes, it's illegal to use tracer, incendiary, or other explosive ammo or devices on any National Forest, at any time. No exceptions.

No, it isn't just you, their use is getting out of hand. The shooting public has changed in the last couple of decades.

I would also be willing to bet that the use of various forms of explosives or explosives-like products is increasing significantly with shows like American Guns and Sons of Guns where nearly every gun they have a customer shoot results in targets exploding.

[Mike Irwin]

"being a golf course superintendent the story was held as highly unlikely and improbable. Being a golfer who also is an active shooter does not always equate across hobby lines, but you are a million times more likely to start a fire shooting incendiary rounds into dry brush, than striking a rock while attempting to move a golf ball forward. If everything on the Internet was true, than I should better start preparing for WWIII and EOTWAWKI"

About 30 years ago I started a small fire in my backyard while cutting dry weeds with a swing sickle.

As a former golfer who whacked more than my fair share of shots into and out of the rough, I raised sparks MANY times while trying to get back onto the fairway or green.

Maybe you haven't experienced it, but I sure as hell have.

[Mike Irwin]

They want THAT much for a frigging fire piston?

What a crock of crap.

[oldgael]

About two months ago we had no rain for some time and the woods were very dry. Two people atmy club range started several fires shooting tracers. New members means new problems. The local fire marshall said he would report the fires were started by gunfire. A first in 92 years of club history.

[HiBC]

Mike,on the fire piston,if you have an interest in them,do a search,you may find a better source.Agreed,those are...not something I would consider.

I did not post that to advertise a source,it just seemed a good page to show that such devices are used,and to lend the idea shooting up an old dry snag may not be wise.

I think a lot of them are bamboo and used by folks of very modest means.

[Mike Irwin]

BC,

Please don't think I was sniping at you for posting the information.

I made a fire piston years ago in Scouts and actually started a fire with it.

They're a huge pain in the butt to use, but if you get them right, they work.

And, not really a topic for discussion in this thread.

[Sport45]

It's not hard to imagine starting a fire shooting lead bullets. Keep in mind our ancestors used to start fires by striking two rocks together. Break the right rock with a bullet or smash two of them together and you get sparks.

You can shoot lead or jacketed bullets into a stump all day long and it won't catch on fire. But miss once, and let a bullet skip across the country and who knows what may happen?

[Redhawk5.5+P+]

Two people atmy club range started several fires shooting tracers.

Yep, that.

A park ranger on the news ask people not to use tracer's.

Look up ammunition to go, they have all kinds of fire stuff.

[scrubcedar]

They are back to claiming 20+ fires were caused by target shooting, and have banned shooting in unincorporated parts of several counties.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54...-utah.html.csp

I'm going to call the state foresters office to see if I can get a list of the fires supposedly started this way. Wish me luck.

[Bob Thompson]

My take FWIW. Normal bullets, I.E. copper jacketed lead bullets cannot cause a spark. Period. I have personally put the same on a grinding wheel and being both non-ferrous metals cannot produce a spark no matter how hard you try. It will get so hot you cannot hold it but still no sparks. It seems highly unlikely that one could cause a spark hitting a rock down range.

After some research on the net a research program at the U. of Cal. in conjunction with the forest fire lab in Riverside, Ca. found it takes approximately 550 degrees F. to ignite dry grass. Now a bullet fired ignites at about 900 degrees C. and leaves the barrel at about 200 degrees F. and 100 yards downrange its at room temp. and certainly not enough to ignite even dry grass.

I have to admit there are unknown things in every circumstance but it seems highly unlikely given the latter use of "conventional bullets" that many fires, if any could happen. Steel core and tracer bullets certainly will of course.

And lastly, very few if any fires are caused with literally millions of hunters in the woods and fields every year using "conventional" bullets. DWR's need the money from hunters licenses and quite possibly personal politics plays a great deal in opinions on all fronts. And lastly, because of news media politics, will we ever hear "the whole story"?

[David13]

I was out at Burro Canyon today. And there was great checking that no one was shooting any steel ammo.
And talk of previous brush fires started out there by steel ammo.
Yesterday I was at Oak Tree, watching some kids at the multi directional skeet range. They were doing quite well.
When someone said oh, there's a fire. And beyond the pistol range flames were shooting up a ridge, 20 to 40 feet in the air.
I believe it started beyond the range entirely, but even then myself and 1/2 the hundreds of people packed up and left.
One road in and one road out. A dead end canyon, and we decided we wanted out.
And only yesterday A Place to Shoot reopened. Due to a huge fire in their neck of the woods they had been closed for a week.
dc

[doofus47]

About a year ago, my friend bought a Buckmaster .22; he also bought several different types of 22 to see what brand the pistol liked best. Eventually, he settled on one. Fast forward another month and he and I were at his indoor range burning off the rest at paper targets. My friend would give me the 10 word synopsis of each type of ammo that was rejected.
"This one I call the sparkler" he said as we dug into box X. Sure enough, every pull of the trigger resulted in mini-speckling burns to the back of my shooting hand as the Buckmaster cycled.
Page 2:
While I'm plinking away (at his indoor range) with the "sparkler" ammo, a fire started in front of my shooting lane. Apparently, the buildup of unburnt powder in front of the lane was ignited by one of my errant sparks. We put out the fire pretty quickly. HVAC did its job and we were plinking again with different ammo again within 20 mins.

I would say that it's entirely possible that if I were firing "the sparkler" from the prone position amidst dried grass, I could start a fire with simple .22lr ammunition.

[Paul B.]

"Until I see some sort of proof, other than just a claim by a government official, I'll stand by my statement, that they are making stuff up to suit their agenda.
Now it is entirely possible that some shooters set the fire, on purpose or by accident, but I think it is highly unlikely that their shooting guns was a factor."

I'm inclined to disagree. One, and it's a bit off the question, don't shoot a muzzleloader over dry grass. Just ask me how I know. You WILL start a fire.

Now as to whether a copper jacketed lead core bullet will start a fire, I'm going to say yes. I have seen bullets (150gr. Sierra .308 Win. at about 2800 FPS at the muzzle) impact a rock bluff where the portion of the bluff was in deep shade give off a very bright flash at impact. Point of impact was maybe 50 yards from the muzzle of the rifle.
There was a video on the web a while back showing high speed photography of various bullet impacts. My thoughts are when that bullet hits a very solid object, and that energy from the velocity creates heat. Lots of heat and the faster the bullet the higher the heat. It is entirely possible that those hot bullet fragments just might be able to start a fire. Consider the bullets that hit that bluff. Was that very bright flash just a spark or bullet metal being converted to white hot fragments? I believe that a bullet impacting at a high enough velocity could very well spew hot enough fragments to start a fire.
Paul B.

[Double Naught Spy]

Sure, if bullets travel fast enough and hit something hard enough, they superheat and liquify.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg

Certainly, in the daytime or under the extremely bright lights of super high speed videography, they may not produce a visible spark, but it is something that can be seen at night with some impacts.

On top of that, it becomes much more likely that sparks will be produced when shooters shoot at steel targets, hit steel target frames, or hit other steel target materials.

[SgtLumpy]

Aside from the argument that this or that bullet causes a spark downrange when it hits this or that - Every gun in the world emits a fireball from at least one area (the muzzle) when fired. Revolvers also emit at the cylinder to forcing cone junction. Fire your gun at night to demonstrate.


Sgt Lumpy

[Double Naught Spy]

Sure, but then there is a difference between the fires started immediately in front of the shooters on outdoor ranges and fires started somewhere around or behind the backstops. Not only are their fireballs, but more likely to start fire culprit of slower burning powder residue that is able to remain hot and/smoldering by the time it reaches the ground. This material tends to travel only a short distance, however.