Firearms starting forest fires - Page 2

HiBC · June 24, 2012, 10:47 AM

I do not support any anti-gun agenda.I am opposed to regulating target shooting.

One price of freedom is responsibility.We can help to preserve our freedom by being responsible.

If we reject the idea that shooting can start a fire,we may learn the hard way that it can.

I have had it happen to me.I do not need to be convinced.Fortunately,only my target burned.

One other potential mechanism to start a fire:

I have heard ,maybe in India,there is a poor man's cigarrette lighter that it a cylinder and piston,a bit of tinder is placed inside,and the piston is smacked.The diesel engine principle lights the tinder.

Now,if a person was pumping bullets into an old,dry Ponderosa snag,the potential for highly compressing some air ,making heat,and starting a smolder exists.

I am not saying lets not go shooting.I am saying lets pay attention.

We don't need the bad press.

I did receive an e-mail from Sen Mark Udall,Co,about a bill to fund public shooting space on Fed land.Barbara Boxer was on the committee also,and it seemed there was money for personell,but not facilities.

I jumped to my own conclusions.I do suspect there are some who are working to dry up our places to shoot,to make shooting more difficult,and phase it out of our culture.I do not ignore that.

But it is still a really bad idea to shoot in a way that can start fires.The logic that awareness of a fire hazard equates to a gov't plot to take our guns is flawed.I can believe in "from my cold dead fingers" yet still take good care of the National Forest and the Pawnee Grassland.

It was not long ago there was a post on TFL regarding shooting tracers in the woods.Some ,including myself,pointed out the fire hazard.Some said don't worry about it.

The RTKBA is in the Bill of Rights as a Creator given Right.

We had still better take care of the RTKBA as responsible people,as frequently in the news there is evidence many in our government oppose the idea there is a Creator.How much respect would they have for a Creator Given Right?

Be careful where your bullets stop,think of fire.Take steel out of the picture.Becareful where you park,think of your hot cat converter.I might be really careful about the flintlock!!Don't forget to plug your powderhorn(been there,done that!!Shooting sitting in a pile of spilled BP is exciting!)

nuff said

ltc444 · June 24, 2012, 06:49 PM

I do not question the fact that target shooting can start a fire. BP is especially bad.

My concern is that "target Shooting" has replaced the old "hunters were in the area" statement used to explain unknown woods fires in the 60s and 70s.

I would like the managers to produce evidence from professional fire investigators to support the claim. Even better a citation for starting the fire would be a nice touch.

Ronbert · June 27, 2012, 04:08 PM

I've put out a half-dozen unattended campfires while 4 wheeling over the years.

Have never seen shooting cause a fire (but haven't tried too hard either).

4th of July will probably see a lot of "shooting" diagnoses of fires. ("shooting" including fireworks)

HiBC · June 27, 2012, 07:56 PM

Cause of the fire near Ft Collins,lightning.

I think there was one near Greeley,Co started by a flat tire/wheel sparking.There is a horrible fire going on at Colorado Springs ,Co,suspected cause,arson.Some other Colorado fire suspected cause:tree branch and electric line contact in the wind.

Out in eastern Co,near Last Chance,another fire has destroyed homes,along with all the feed for cattle.

None of these fires were caused by shooting.

We are over 100deg f and relative humidity has been single digit.All firefighting resources are busy.

While I have my concerns about restrictions,somehow any loss of freedom not only becomes permanent,it expands...

I do support all of us being really careful out of common sense

insomni · June 27, 2012, 11:20 PM

Ive taken part in and witnessed SEVERAl range fires, which if they hadnt been promptly contained probably would have expanded very rapidly. They've all had one thing in common: tracers.

BGutzman · June 28, 2012, 10:09 PM

Tracers cause fires all the time... not sure how many civilians shoot them but they are a definitive cause of some fires.

doofus47 · June 30, 2012, 05:58 PM

I believe it.
It could be sparks from still-burning cartridge powder exiting the pistol/rifle. I've seen those cause fire.

It could be from a bullet sparking on impact with a rock or metal. I used to think that those were a myth (copper and lead don't spark, silly!), but I've seen that happen.

It could be something completely avoidable, like a thrown cigarette.

HiBC speaks the truth. It's a very very tenuous situation in the Colorado front range this summer. It's also dry even in the high mountains. The USFS has open fire bans in effect for large areas of the mountain forests. I can't imagine it's better in Utah.

If you're going to shoot outdoors this year, takes some extra water with you and pick your shooting spot and target backstop well.

radom · July 2, 2012, 07:54 PM

It can and does happen. Most of the time its some idiot that is shooting at a target on the slope of a hill covered in dry grass when the humidity is really low then hits a rock. Its not a gun issue its a issue of some peoples total lack of thinking.

A lot of surplus ammo is copper washed steel bullets and even more programatic then you also get dumb-dumbs popping off tracers when its 106 degrees and 4.8% humidity.

The one that gets a bad rap is ciggy butts as for years if there was no determed cause it was "Oh that had to be a ciggybutt".

redraider · July 2, 2012, 07:59 PM

"A few years ago in California a golfer hit a shot into the rough or brush and, trying to hit it out, scraped his club on a rock.

The resulting shower of sparks ignited a fire that burned something like 20 acres of brush and grass.
Mike Irwin"

No offense, but I declare bullcrap on this. Please site the source. Our gun related stories are held to the same regard, so should these stories.
A friend of a friend at who was playing with the guy doesn't count.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 2, 2012, 08:09 PM

I declare that if you have doubts - you might ask politely for the source or the link.

I declare that you might wrong: http://digitaljournal.com/article/296861

redraider · July 2, 2012, 08:27 PM

being a golf course superintendent the story was held as highly unlikely and improbable. Being a golfer who also is an active shooter does not always equate across hobby lines, but you are a million times more likely to start a fire shooting incendiary rounds into dry brush, than striking a rock while attempting to move a golf ball forward. If everything on the Internet was true, than I should better start preparing for WWIII and EOTWAWKI

Glenn E. Meyer · July 2, 2012, 08:37 PM

Your response does not parse. But the point is that you do not declare this or that in such a rude manner. That's a hint.

scrubcedar · July 2, 2012, 09:10 PM

They just started another one, this time in Cache Valley (Logan) Utah where I live.
This is a quote from the local paper,"Firefighters say the cause of the fire is target shooting. Two people have been questioned and released pending the results of an investigation." Other news reports say that these guys admitted to doing it.
The fire so far is not headed for any homes but is just burning in millville canyon Thank God . The entire valley is full of smoke and as an asthmatic I'm already in serious trouble. The entire Wasatch front from the Idaho border well past Salt Lake to the south is smoky and hazy.
I'm the real world consequence of these peoples carelessness, I can't breathe. If I end up in the hospital after people have admitted to starting this with "target shooting" will that be enough proof?
I'm sorry if I sound grouchy I don't feel good. I normally go to a hill by a local lake to do my shooting, I haven't gone for weeks because why risk it?

redraider · July 2, 2012, 09:41 PM

"Your response does not parse. But the point is that you do not declare this or that in such a rude manner. That's a hint."

Understandable, I can see where my comment was taken out of context. It's hard to relate inflection in ones voice via written text. No disrespect was intended.
Thanks
DE

Jeff F · July 2, 2012, 11:23 PM

Weird sparking, I have started 4 fires with heavy equipment, 2 with dozer's and 2 with big loaders grubbing off a piece of desert at the start of construction. All were caused by sparks off either the tracks on rocks or the cutting edges on rocks. I have also seen fires caused from shooting steel jacketed rounds hitting rocks in dry areas. It can and does happen from time to time.

kilimanjaro · July 3, 2012, 12:05 AM

Those who do not believe a single spark can ignite a fire, and will not adjust their shooting behavior accordingly, should purchase a very large umbrella insurance policy. If you do happen to start a fire, and the origin is traced to you, expect to pay for it. Hopefully, no one will be killed on the fire you start and add that to your burden of financial responsibility and guilt for the remainder of your life.

The land managers and fire investigators have gotten very good at finding not just the origin of a fire, but who started it. DNA, witnesses, and videos from the store at the crossroads have all led to trials and judgements.

Hint : The fire moves away from the origin point, the evidence remains.

FrankenMauser · July 3, 2012, 06:20 AM

Utah's 2012 fires started by "shooting" took a massive nose-dive last week. The state revised its statistics, leaving only one fire as a "shooting fire". (The fire started by idiots using explosive targets, and flammable targets in dry grass. ...the idiots have still not been apprehended.)

The rest have been attributed to other factors, or classified as "unknown" / "human caused".

There is one asterisk (*) in the statistics, though. One fire is still suspected of being started by steel jacketed bullets, but because it was on incorporated property (and under the city's domain), it is listed only as "human caused". (It's the city's problem; not the state's.)

In response to more pressure for shooting bans, and the revised statistics, Governor Gary Herbert stated....

Quote:

We can meet together and pass law after law after law. But you can't pass a law that outlaws stupid.

OPC · July 3, 2012, 10:50 AM

In AZ, an arrest was made for a wildfire:
Mesa man accused of igniting Sunflower Fire

Suspect was believed to have discharged an "incindiary shotgun shell". By definition, doesn't 'incindiary' mean that a fire or spark will result? Seems very poor judgment, if true. 17,500acres burned.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 3, 2012, 11:36 AM

One of those Dragon's Breath (if I remember the name) shells?

Evolutionary failure.

FiveInADime · July 3, 2012, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPC

In AZ, an arrest was made for a wildfire:
Mesa man accused of igniting Sunflower Fire

Suspect was believed to have discharged an "incindiary shotgun shell". By definition, doesn't 'incindiary' mean that a fire or spark will result? Seems very poor judgment, if true. 17,500acres burned.

According to our local news last night, the guys tried to put it out and when they couldn't they called 911 and the operator told them to leave. A Forest Service worker witnessed the guys leaving which led them to finding the guy responsible. I wonder what kind of trouble he's looking at given that they called 911 and such. It's a shame that this guy made such a stupid mistake, because it seems that he's not a bad guy and he has fully cooperated with the investigators.

I grew up doing stupid things in the desert here in Arizona, too. Luckily I was just smart enough to not start a forest fire. I know the guy has to be racked with guilt over this. When you Start a forest fire here in AZ your public approval rating gets up there with serial killers and politicians and such.

Sent From My Galaxy S 4g Using Tapatalk

sonick808 · July 3, 2012, 05:10 PM

I can't believe that idiot shot a dragon's breath round in a desert full of dried foliage. That makes me so mad I just see red. I'm an AZ resident and I don't want my land scorched unnaturally. Idiot.

kilimanjaro · July 3, 2012, 08:41 PM

" I wonder what kind of trouble he's looking at given that they called 911 and such."

He can call 911 all day long, he still used an incendiary round on a National Forest and started a wildfire. He's going to be cited under federal law and regulations, and be subject to cost recovery for the suppression of the fire.

Al Den · July 3, 2012, 09:04 PM

I see fires started every single year on the range. Spread to the woods. 'course it's with tracer in medium machineguns on a military range, but...

scrubcedar · July 3, 2012, 10:33 PM

Frankenmauser, thanks for the update I missed it. It looks like the one fire they are not backing off the claim that shooting started it is the millville fire up here near me. Two guys have been questioned more than once and may still be charged. I'll try to keep up with the news and share it with everybody. I notice as well that they did go ahead and ban the use of steel core and steel jacketed ammo on some public lands. Another huge fire started this afternoon, they think it was construction equipment.

ripnbst · July 3, 2012, 11:01 PM

@Kilmanjaro, remove cat converters and save the forest

July 2, 2012, 08:09 PM	#35
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,061	I declare that if you have doubts - you might ask politely for the source or the link. I declare that you might wrong: http://digitaljournal.com/article/296861 __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 2, 2012, 08:37 PM	#37
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,061	Your response does not parse. But the point is that you do not declare this or that in such a rude manner. That's a hint. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 3, 2012, 10:50 AM	#43
OPC Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2007 Posts: 206	In AZ, an arrest was made for a wildfire: Mesa man accused of igniting Sunflower Fire Suspect was believed to have discharged an "incindiary shotgun shell". By definition, doesn't 'incindiary' mean that a fire or spark will result? Seems very poor judgment, if true. 17,500acres burned. __________________ *José*

July 3, 2012, 11:36 AM	#44
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,061	One of those Dragon's Breath (if I remember the name) shells? Evolutionary failure. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

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June 24, 2012, 10:47 AM	#26
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	I do not support any anti-gun agenda.I am opposed to regulating target shooting. One price of freedom is responsibility.We can help to preserve our freedom by being responsible. If we reject the idea that shooting can start a fire,we may learn the hard way that it can. I have had it happen to me.I do not need to be convinced.Fortunately,only my target burned. One other potential mechanism to start a fire: I have heard ,maybe in India,there is a poor man's cigarrette lighter that it a cylinder and piston,a bit of tinder is placed inside,and the piston is smacked.The diesel engine principle lights the tinder. Now,if a person was pumping bullets into an old,dry Ponderosa snag,the potential for highly compressing some air ,making heat,and starting a smolder exists. I am not saying lets not go shooting.I am saying lets pay attention. We don't need the bad press. I did receive an e-mail from Sen Mark Udall,Co,about a bill to fund public shooting space on Fed land.Barbara Boxer was on the committee also,and it seemed there was money for personell,but not facilities. I jumped to my own conclusions.I do suspect there are some who are working to dry up our places to shoot,to make shooting more difficult,and phase it out of our culture.I do not ignore that. But it is still a really bad idea to shoot in a way that can start fires.The logic that awareness of a fire hazard equates to a gov't plot to take our guns is flawed.I can believe in "from my cold dead fingers" yet still take good care of the National Forest and the Pawnee Grassland. It was not long ago there was a post on TFL regarding shooting tracers in the woods.Some ,including myself,pointed out the fire hazard.Some said don't worry about it. The RTKBA is in the Bill of Rights as a Creator given Right. We had still better take care of the RTKBA as responsible people,as frequently in the news there is evidence many in our government oppose the idea there is a Creator.How much respect would they have for a Creator Given Right? Be careful where your bullets stop,think of fire.Take steel out of the picture.Becareful where you park,think of your hot cat converter.I might be really careful about the flintlock!!Don't forget to plug your powderhorn(been there,done that!!Shooting sitting in a pile of spilled BP is exciting!) nuff said

June 24, 2012, 06:49 PM	#27
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	I do not question the fact that target shooting can start a fire. BP is especially bad. My concern is that "target Shooting" has replaced the old "hunters were in the area" statement used to explain unknown woods fires in the 60s and 70s. I would like the managers to produce evidence from professional fire investigators to support the claim. Even better a citation for starting the fire would be a nice touch.

June 27, 2012, 04:08 PM	#28
Ronbert Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2009 Location: Ft. Collins, CO. Posts: 398	I've put out a half-dozen unattended campfires while 4 wheeling over the years. Have never seen shooting cause a fire (but haven't tried too hard either). 4th of July will probably see a lot of "shooting" diagnoses of fires. ("shooting" including fireworks)

June 27, 2012, 07:56 PM	#29
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,350	Cause of the fire near Ft Collins,lightning. I think there was one near Greeley,Co started by a flat tire/wheel sparking.There is a horrible fire going on at Colorado Springs ,Co,suspected cause,arson.Some other Colorado fire suspected cause:tree branch and electric line contact in the wind. Out in eastern Co,near Last Chance,another fire has destroyed homes,along with all the feed for cattle. None of these fires were caused by shooting. We are over 100deg f and relative humidity has been single digit.All firefighting resources are busy. While I have my concerns about restrictions,somehow any loss of freedom not only becomes permanent,it expands... I do support all of us being really careful out of common sense

June 27, 2012, 11:20 PM	#30
insomni Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2011 Posts: 342	Ive taken part in and witnessed SEVERAl range fires, which if they hadnt been promptly contained probably would have expanded very rapidly. They've all had one thing in common: tracers.

June 28, 2012, 10:09 PM	#31
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	Tracers cause fires all the time... not sure how many civilians shoot them but they are a definitive cause of some fires.

June 30, 2012, 05:58 PM	#32
doofus47 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent Posts: 2,483	I believe it. It could be sparks from still-burning cartridge powder exiting the pistol/rifle. I've seen those cause fire. It could be from a bullet sparking on impact with a rock or metal. I used to think that those were a myth (copper and lead don't spark, silly!), but I've seen that happen. It could be something completely avoidable, like a thrown cigarette. HiBC speaks the truth. It's a very very tenuous situation in the Colorado front range this summer. It's also dry even in the high mountains. The USFS has open fire bans in effect for large areas of the mountain forests. I can't imagine it's better in Utah. If you're going to shoot outdoors this year, takes some extra water with you and pick your shooting spot and target backstop well.

July 2, 2012, 07:54 PM	#33
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,379	It can and does happen. Most of the time its some idiot that is shooting at a target on the slope of a hill covered in dry grass when the humidity is really low then hits a rock. Its not a gun issue its a issue of some peoples total lack of thinking. A lot of surplus ammo is copper washed steel bullets and even more programatic then you also get dumb-dumbs popping off tracers when its 106 degrees and 4.8% humidity. The one that gets a bad rap is ciggy butts as for years if there was no determed cause it was "Oh that had to be a ciggybutt".

July 2, 2012, 07:59 PM	#34
redraider Member Join Date: September 27, 2011 Posts: 25	"A few years ago in California a golfer hit a shot into the rough or brush and, trying to hit it out, scraped his club on a rock. The resulting shower of sparks ignited a fire that burned something like 20 acres of brush and grass. Mike Irwin" No offense, but I declare bullcrap on this. Please site the source. Our gun related stories are held to the same regard, so should these stories. A friend of a friend at who was playing with the guy doesn't count.

July 2, 2012, 08:27 PM	#36
redraider Member Join Date: September 27, 2011 Posts: 25	being a golf course superintendent the story was held as highly unlikely and improbable. Being a golfer who also is an active shooter does not always equate across hobby lines, but you are a million times more likely to start a fire shooting incendiary rounds into dry brush, than striking a rock while attempting to move a golf ball forward. If everything on the Internet was true, than I should better start preparing for WWIII and EOTWAWKI

July 2, 2012, 09:10 PM	#38
scrubcedar Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2012 Location: Southwestern Colorado Posts: 507	They just started another one, this time in Cache Valley (Logan) Utah where I live. This is a quote from the local paper,"Firefighters say the cause of the fire is target shooting. Two people have been questioned and released pending the results of an investigation." Other news reports say that these guys admitted to doing it. The fire so far is not headed for any homes but is just burning in millville canyon Thank God . The entire valley is full of smoke and as an asthmatic I'm already in serious trouble. The entire Wasatch front from the Idaho border well past Salt Lake to the south is smoky and hazy. I'm the real world consequence of these peoples carelessness, I can't breathe. If I end up in the hospital after people have admitted to starting this with "target shooting" will that be enough proof? I'm sorry if I sound grouchy I don't feel good. I normally go to a hill by a local lake to do my shooting, I haven't gone for weeks because why risk it?

July 2, 2012, 09:41 PM	#39
redraider Member Join Date: September 27, 2011 Posts: 25	"Your response does not parse. But the point is that you do not declare this or that in such a rude manner. That's a hint." Understandable, I can see where my comment was taken out of context. It's hard to relate inflection in ones voice via written text. No disrespect was intended. Thanks DE

July 2, 2012, 11:23 PM	#40
Jeff F Senior Member Join Date: September 4, 2005 Location: Silver Springs NV Posts: 187	Weird sparking, I have started 4 fires with heavy equipment, 2 with dozer's and 2 with big loaders grubbing off a piece of desert at the start of construction. All were caused by sparks off either the tracks on rocks or the cutting edges on rocks. I have also seen fires caused from shooting steel jacketed rounds hitting rocks in dry areas. It can and does happen from time to time.

July 3, 2012, 12:05 AM	#41
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	Those who do not believe a single spark can ignite a fire, and will not adjust their shooting behavior accordingly, should purchase a very large umbrella insurance policy. If you do happen to start a fire, and the origin is traced to you, expect to pay for it. Hopefully, no one will be killed on the fire you start and add that to your burden of financial responsibility and guilt for the remainder of your life. The land managers and fire investigators have gotten very good at finding not just the origin of a fire, but who started it. DNA, witnesses, and videos from the store at the crossroads have all led to trials and judgements. Hint : The fire moves away from the origin point, the evidence remains.

July 3, 2012, 05:10 PM	#46
sonick808 Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 396	I can't believe that idiot shot a dragon's breath round in a desert full of dried foliage. That makes me so mad I just see red. I'm an AZ resident and I don't want my land scorched unnaturally. Idiot.

July 3, 2012, 08:41 PM	#47
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	" I wonder what kind of trouble he's looking at given that they called 911 and such." He can call 911 all day long, he still used an incendiary round on a National Forest and started a wildfire. He's going to be cited under federal law and regulations, and be subject to cost recovery for the suppression of the fire.

July 3, 2012, 09:04 PM	#48
Al Den Junior member Join Date: April 28, 2012 Posts: 150	I see fires started every single year on the range. Spread to the woods. 'course it's with tracer in medium machineguns on a military range, but...

July 3, 2012, 10:33 PM	#49
scrubcedar Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2012 Location: Southwestern Colorado Posts: 507	Frankenmauser, thanks for the update I missed it. It looks like the one fire they are not backing off the claim that shooting started it is the millville fire up here near me. Two guys have been questioned more than once and may still be charged. I'll try to keep up with the news and share it with everybody. I notice as well that they did go ahead and ban the use of steel core and steel jacketed ammo on some public lands. Another huge fire started this afternoon, they think it was construction equipment.

July 3, 2012, 11:01 PM	#50
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,560	@Kilmanjaro, remove cat converters and save the forest