Firearms starting forest fires

[mesaman]

A recent newscast from Salt Lake City, Utah, claimed that five forest(range) fires on the west side of Utah Lake, near Provo, Utah, were directly caused by firearms being shot into the dry grasses. Even so, I recall a study done by one of the county sheriff's office, in another county, which measured the effect of firing various calibers and various projectiles into grasses and resulting fires. His conclusion; after 1000 rounds fired from calibers from .17 HMR to .338 Magnum, none of them produced flammable results. I wonder what others have observed or read. Please respond.

[kilimanjaro]

Ricocet and muzzle blast make sparks, on days of very low humidity, dry fuels, and wind, you can lose a fire in seconds. Add the probability of explosive targets like tannerite or tracer ammo, it's a safe bet that shooters can start a fire.

I'm with the Forest Service, and have seen it. Use a safe backstop to prevent ricocet, don't shoot in dry grass, and never us tracer or other such ammo. Sometimes, just go to the range to shoot. Start a fire, you pay for it.

You can start a fire just by parking in dry grass, your catalytic converter can set it off.

[InigoMontoya]

1000 rounds isn't really a statistically significant number of rounds to be fired if you're trying to rule out the possibility of a Bad Event like a brush fire. You really do need to push it out to 6 sigma or better (think: 1,000,000 rounds).

Further, those rounds need to be fired under worst case conditions. No fair shooting them in the middle of a downpour (best case conditions, obviously).

Oh, and yeah, tracer ammo can certainly do it. I've witnessed that one.

[FrankenMauser]

Even state officials will sometimes admit that the problem is not all ammunition, but idiots that are irresponsible with steel-jacketed ammo. (You're a complete idiot, to choose to use steel-jacketed ammo in the conditions we're experiencing in Utah right now.)
Second to that, are the jerks that think shooting propane tanks and tannerite (or tracers) on public land is an acceptable practice. And, they're stupid enough to always pick a grassy area that is absolutely bone-dry, when they do it...

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54...-utah.html.csp

Bottom line:
It's not shooters or their ammunition. It's the irresponsible idiots.


Case in point...
Two weeks ago, a shooter witnessed a large group of other shooters nearby, shooting into a grassy area (that was closed to shooting, anyway ). After a few minutes, the witness heard an explosion, saw smoke, watched all of the shooters scramble into their vehicles, and was trying to contact 911 as the jerks hauled butt out of the area. In less than a minute, there were 30-foot flames racing toward him. Once the fire was contained (it took nearly a week), investigators found pieces of a propane tank and an exploding target at the ignition point. Those responsible have not yet been located.

[BillM]

A couple of years ago one of the local ranges had two seperate fires
started on the 200 yd range by steel jacketed milsurp ammo. Not
tracers. Had a moron around here fire a 50 cal tracer into a stump
out in the woods and start a small forest fire. It took it several hours
to burst into flame.

[Mike Irwin]

A few years ago in California a golfer hit a shot into the rough or brush and, trying to hit it out, scraped his club on a rock.

The resulting shower of sparks ignited a fire that burned something like 20 acres of brush and grass.

[NWPilgrim]

Sounds like it would be cost effective to set up more gravel shooting ranges for free public use, rather than to spend millions on fighting fires.

Still would not eliminate irresponsible people using incendiaries, matches, cigarettes, or steel golf clubs, but might reduce the risk of fires from less obvious sources. Not holding my breath for the USFS to redirect fire fighting funds toward safer shooter, though.

[KenL]

Part of the issue may be that lots of folks are now using that stuff that blows up when it's shot. It got popular with Top Shot. Forget what it's called but people need to be smarter than that to use that pyro stuff when there's fire danger.

[JimPage]

from Mike Irwin "A few years ago in California a golfer hit a shot into the rough or brush and, trying to hit it out, scraped his club on a rock.

"The resulting shower of sparks ignited a fire that burned something like 20 acres of brush and grass."

We shooters get blamed for golfers vandalism all the time.

[FrankenMauser]

Sounds like it would be cost effective to set up more gravel shooting ranges for free public use, rather than to spend millions on fighting fires.

Still would not eliminate irresponsible people using incendiaries, matches, cigarettes, or steel golf clubs, but might reduce the risk of fires from less obvious sources. Not holding my breath for the USFS to redirect fire fighting funds toward safer shooter, though.

And when the use fee for the gravel "public" ranges is increased to $40 per person, per hour, as a back-door method to 'stick it' to gun owners.... What then?

The concept has been tried by several western states in the past. The end result is always the same: They turn into dump sites for hazardous waste, unless there is a full-time staff to police the range. And, since this is the government we're talking about -- they don't like agencies that can't fund themselves (unless it's a "feel good" agency like WIC) -- the ranges get closed, or a use fee is implemented.

Problem all-around?.... irresponsible idiots.

[HiBC]

I have had standard copper jacket and lead projectiles somehow create fire when they struck steel.

I suppose it might be like a lathe or band saw running at 180,000 feet per minute.Likely you'll fling hot chips.

Once,it was about shooting junk with a 7mm mag,160 gr Nosler partition,and once it was about hitting a rebar target stake holding a cellotex back board with targets stapled to it.I saw smoke in the scope at 300 yds.Dumped my gatorade on it.That was a Matchking.

I'm also conscious of cat converters,etc.

I'm in Ft Collins,Co..watching the High Park fire burn West of me.Its probably 70,000 acres as I write...I have been watching a big smoke plume,from what I understand,Hewlett Gulch flared up,and the fire jumped Poudre Canyon at the Big Narrows,maybe 5 more homes lost,its near 200 now.People I know have lost homes.And,its 70,000 acres of deer,Elk,moose,mountain lions,National Forest.
It is also a significant watershed,from near Continental Divide to the streams and rivers,ash,silt,erosion..not happy trout.

This fire will burn till it snows.It started with one tree.

Lets be careful.

The smoke is coming into my house now,as the air cools a little,it comes down.

I,personally,am just not going to take any chances.This is a serious fire season.

Search "High Park Fire Colorado",you tube,too.

[Mannlicher]

another anti gun claim, that is totally unprovable. BLM has been trying to ban shooting on .gov land for some time now.

[parrothead2581]

The Today Show just said it was a result of target shooters.

Possible they fessed up to it?

ETA: Just saw that officials believe a bullet ricocheted off of rock, igniting a spark. The Bureau of Land Management says this is the 20th wildfire in Utah this year to be ignited by shooting.

[JimPage]

It's possible. But unlikely they can be that specific about the cause. It's easy propaganda fodder.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Weird spark events. I was shooting in an indoor range once that had a very heavy metal gadget that held the top of the target. I was trying a head shot with my off hand and shot too high. A fragment peeled off the edge of the metal thingee and sliced it in half on the diagonal.

AND the edges of the slice were burning. I would not dismiss that a round could cause sparks. We are progun but cannot deny that a bad thing could happen.

[Slopemeno]

Anybody who has ever shot in an indoor steel league can tell you that sparks occur when you shoot jacketed bullets on steel- I've seen it many, many times. .45 ACP usually isn't enough to do it, but .38 Super and 9mm will.

[FrankenMauser]

another anti gun claim, that is totally unprovable. BLM has been trying to ban shooting on .gov land for some time now.

Many of the fires this year have witnesses to the events, or the shooters themselves have tried to control the fire to some degree, as they called for help.
One of the fires was even traced to a few shooters breaking some clays. My guess: Smoldering fiber wad from hand loaded shot shells. It happens.

I know Florida gets its share of fires, as well (I lived there, and had one of the massive fires on Eglin come within 200 yards of my house, before it was put out). However, this is not Florida. This is the desert. The conditions in the Southwest are terrible right now. It is so dry, that the tiniest spark can ignite the tinder-dry grasses, sagebrush bark, and other dead plants ... on contact.

It is exceedingly difficult to get copper and lead projectiles to start a fire, even in these super-dry conditions, when shooting at paper, plastic, and aluminum targets. But, when you add steel into the mix, it isn't the projectile that sparks. It is the hot steel fragments, hot chunks of corrosion blasted from the surface of the steel, and burning paint chips that are the problem.

Steel jacketed ammo is a totally different beast. It will spark on nearly anything solid.

For quite a while, BLM has had the power to ban shooting on their lands. ..but they haven't. The closest they've gotten in most states, is to close high-impact areas (places where shooters and ATVs cross paths too often, places where ATVs have destroyed too much plant life, or places where erosion has gotten out of control due to ATVs and/or shooting). Right now, they have an active ban on "steel ammunition" in the Southwest. That should be a slight indication of their stance on the matter.... they didn't attack shooters, or even close many (if any) areas to shooting. They just placed a temporary ban on "steel ammunition" - not all ammunition.

Pull your head out of the sand, and take a look around.
This problem won't go away by pretending it is a government conspiracy.

[Don H]

To add to FrankenMauser's post:

The blaze started during a National Guard training session when a spark from a soldier's round ignited dry brush, said Utah National Guard spokesman Lt. Col. Hank McIntire.

"They knew immediately and they got on it right away," but did not have enough manpower and equipment to contain the fire, McIntire said.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50...unday.html.csp

This fire burned 3,500 acres and 4 homes. There was no question that it was caused by a firearm.

[Mannlicher]

Glenn E Meyers

I would not dismiss that a round could cause sparks. We are progun but cannot deny that a bad thing could happen.

Until I see some sort of proof, other than just a claim by a government official, I'll stand by my statement, that they are making stuff up to suit their agenda.
Now it is entirely possible that some shooters set the fire, on purpose or by accident, but I think it is highly unlikely that their shooting guns was a factor.

[Yung.gunr]

This is a perfect example of why I don't shoot much at all during the summer. Here in my neck of the desert you have to be out there by 4:30-5:00 am to get weather that is tolerable (not even pleasant). Then there is only about an hour or max two hours where I can stand it before the heat just about bakes me.

I figure that it if it is that hot just about anything can set off a spark. I don't want to be the dumb ass we are all talking about right now. I've never shot anything that would explode for that reason as well.

Not to mention that there is no water readily available where I go in case something were to happen.

When my grandparents lived in the boonies it was great because we could shoot all kinds of stuff, just make sure to have the hoses stretched out and ready. We did have to use em a couple times from fireworks, but nothing got any bigger then 3'x3 before it was put out.

[bigalshootmupper]

I would bet that if any of these fires were in fact caused by shooting, then it was by steel jacketed bullets. I shot some Tokarev 1953 steel plated, copper washed, bullets a few weeks ago. I shot them about 9pm when it was getting dark out. Man, that Tokarev has some flash to it. I had one round that shot just like a tracer and I could see the fire-lite bullet fly for 30-40 yards until it hit the ground. I could see how this could cause a fire.

Yes, they banned steel jacketed bullets, but you know they are still using them.

[cornbush]

In one of the latest fires here in Utah it was the shooter himself that called after he realized he could not contain the fire himself.
He was shooting some of the old Russian steel cored ammo....... it does happen, lets just try and use a little common sense.

[BillM]

Part of the issue may be that lots of folks are now using that stuff that blows up when it's shot. It got popular with Top Shot. Forget what it's called but people need to be smarter than that to use that pyro stuff when there's fire danger.

If you are talking about Tannerite, it will NOT start a fire. The main
product of the bang is water vapor. What they use on Top Shot IS
capable of starting a fire, it's movie special effects pyrotechnics, and
messing around with homebrew stuff like that will get you a long vacation
at government expense. "Manufacturing an explosive device" is probably
the most common charge.

[scrubcedar]

I'm a Utah guy. Gary Herbert, the governer here in Utah is as pro-gun as it gets. HE announced in a press conference that it was target shooting. I have about the same amount of faith in the media as you guys probably do, but this was not them saying it. Keep in mind the only reason Herbert came into office was because he was Lt. Governer when Huntsman resigned. He was too right wing conservative to be elected the first time on his own. We believe strongly in the second amendment out here. The folks who settled the state got to see first hand what even our own government will do to unpopular folks who should have constitutional rights but aren't well armed enough to defend those rights.

[Redhawk5.5+P+]

ETA: Just saw that officials believe a bullet ricocheted off of rock, igniting a spark. The Bureau of Land Management says this is the 20th wildfire in Utah this year to be ignited by shooting.

I heard that on the news tonight. Kind of hard to beleive.