Oops, forgot to clean my 1858 NMA

[TruthTellers]

Just discovered that I had an 1858 sitting in a holster for months either not cleaned or not cleaned good enough. Had to spray WD-40 over the cylinder, pin, and loading lever as it was sticky and the cylinder pin needed to be hammered to get free.

Worst of it so far looks to be the underside of the top strap, just over the forcing cone and the cylinder pin, but the pin I can buff the surface rust off and re-blue.

The bore isn't shiny and there looks to be very, very minor pitting happening near the forcing cone, but otherwise the bore seems okay.

It's making me wonder, does Pietta Chrome line the bores in their black powder guns? Because there's no way carbon or alloy steel would look this good after months of sitting.

Normally what I do after a range session is I'll spray the bore and cylinder down with Ballistol, get home and do a more through cleaning. Apparently I didn't do that and this would have been in October or November I last remember being at the range shooting black powder.

I swabbed the bore and cylinder chambers, so all I can do now is wait and see what the results are later today. I don't care about the cylinder much, I can get spares easy, but it's the bore I'm most worried about given that's what has the most impact on the bullet.

I'll try and get some pics up later, but for now I'd like to know how much will accuracy be affected?

[Hawg]

It's making me wonder, does Pietta Chrome line the bores in their black powder guns?

No they do not. You just proved that bp won't rust a gun up overnight like so many claim it does.

[Rachen]

If black powder residue really corroded the barrels and other parts as fast as many publishers of sport-related articles have written, firearms in general would have fallen into disuse due to ridiculously high maintenance needs.

Being able to clean our guns right after a hunt or a range outing is a modern luxury. Note the word modern.

During the days of the gunfighters and long cattle drives, guns were seldom cleaned routinely simply due to the fact that the men who used them are often preoccupied with far more critical tasks such as staying alive or staying warm. Thus, a gun may be fired, then reloaded again without as much as a bore / chamber swab, and left like that for some time before the charge may be fired or dumped and the weapon given a proper scrubbing. Many times that charge might be left in there indefinitely.

[Hellgate]

TruthTeller,
I suspect you may live in a low humidity/moisture area. If there is much moisture around the fouling will draw it out od the air. Also, you may not have done a lot of shooting to get extensive fouling to build up. You kinda lucked out I’d say.

[Hawg]

I live in a high humidity area. I wouldn't let one sit that long but I'll let them sit a few days even after shooting Pyrodex.

[mehavey]

I've had patches come out orange on Sunday after a Saturday BP shoot/careless final cleaning step of BreakFree.

As TruthTeller notes, ". . .you got lucky . . . ."

[noelf2]

I live in a high humidity area. I wouldn't let one sit that long but I'll let them sit a few days even after shooting Pyrodex.

I lived in Florida for a number of years, back in the 90's, and it was a high humidity area also. But my house had a heat pump, and inside it was generally not humid. Shoot it, leave it out in the summer humidity for a couple days (for science ).

[4V50 Gary]

Oppski.

[Pahoo]

Addressing the question of how long one can wait before cleaning any M/L. To some degree it depends on the propellant you use and the Sulphur Based propellants are the most corrosive. I have seen the start of this action by the time I get home from the range. Lately, I "start" cleaning after my last shot. I give it a good spraying of Ballistol and swab the bore. Take it home and I can let it sit for two or three days; Max. …

C&B's
If you are too tired to clean at the end of the day, remove the grips and immerse in a shallow pan and cover the entire frame with mineral sprits. You can let it soak for hours or even days. ……..

Sidelocks;
Aster teaching all day and a bit tired or short on time, I made a PVC soaking tube; mounted firmly. Pulled the nipple on my sidelock, inserted the barrel and filled to the top with mineral spirits. Cap it and again, let it sit until I had the time to give it a deep cleaning.

Rust will not get a start when covered with mineral spirits as it blocks out the oxygen …..

I recall a poster on at dentist's that showed a piece of cherry pie. The caption read;
Five minutes after you eat me, I start eating your teeth !!!

Be prudent and;
Be Safe !!!

[rodwhaincamo]

I left my sidelock over night after shooting Pyrodex as I had read a couple of SASS shooters claim immediate cleaning wasn’t necessary. I don’t truly know what my bore looks like but I freaked out the next day when it came to cleaning it. It took hours of intermittent swabbing to finally comes out with cleanish patches and I observed for several years that a Ballistol patch run through it after sitting would still produce a slight orangish color. Eventually this has stopped. I assume there is some pitting which is where the orange would come from, but then I don’t have a bore light anymore.

[TruthTellers]

After letting the gun soak in Ballistol for two days and having just ran a dry patch down the bore, I'm going to say I am a lucky duck.

There is very, very, VERY minor pitting within the first inch or two of the bore, but it's only tiny speckles here and there; if you weren't looking for pitting, you'd probably miss it.

The only area that is "bad" is where the loading ram and cylinder pin go, which are areas I can't spray down with Ballistol when I'm at the range before I head home to do through cleaning.

Here's some pics.





The part of the frame just under the forcing cone, that's where I had to do some filing to get a conversion cylinder to fit years back. All the bluing was removed from that leaving raw steel. Hasn't been an issue over the years as normally clean it well. Will be hitting that area with Scotch Brite soon.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by rodwhaincamo

I left my sidelock over night after shooting Pyrodex as I had read a couple of SASS shooters claim immediate cleaning wasn’t necessary. I don’t truly know what my bore looks like but I freaked out the next day when it came to cleaning it. It took hours of intermittent swabbing to finally comes out with cleanish patches and I observed for several years that a Ballistol patch run through it after sitting would still produce a slight orangish color. Eventually this has stopped. I assume there is some pitting which is where the orange would come from, but then I don’t have a bore light anymore.

I was told Pyrodex didn't require cleaning within a day or two like black powder does, but after the first time I shot the same gun in the pictures above for the first time, after a week of leaving it, the bore was completely brown.

I ran numerous patches down that bore with CLP and got it looking brand new, but after that, whenever I shoot Pyrodex, I never let it go uncleaned for more than 36 hours.

In fact, because of Pyrodex, that's the reason I started spraying the bore, cylinder, and gun down with Ballistol at the range before heading home. After I go through the last of my Pyrodex, I'm switching over to Triple 7 only from then on.

[prof marvel]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

I was told Pyrodex didn't require cleaning within a day or two like black powder does, but after the first time I shot the same gun in the pictures above for the first time, after a week of leaving it, the bore was completely brown.

I ran numerous patches down that bore with CLP and got it looking brand new, but after that, whenever I shoot Pyrodex, I never let it go uncleaned for more than 36 hours.

In fact, because of Pyrodex, that's the reason I started spraying the bore, cylinder, and gun down with Ballistol at the range before heading home. After I go through the last of my Pyrodex, I'm switching over to Triple 7 only from then on.

I am afraid you were "told wrong" Pyro is quite corrosive and due to the perchlorates it is more agressive than real BP. also, Triple 7 won't buy you any difference in corrosion - it is more energentic but still includes perchlorates.

before anyone starts in, I have and use Pyrodex, 777, Swiss BP, Goex BP, Elephant BP and have acquired BlackMZ to try out.

APP or BlackMZ seem to be more forgiving, but I haven't tried it yet.

hang on, I will go fetch and repost my small dissertation on cleaning.

yhs
prof marvel

[prof marvel]

Regarding the Cleaning of Guns After the Use of Pyrodex and 777
( both of which utilize potassium perchlorate )

Real Black Powder contains sulfur and potassium nitrate and charcoal. On combustion we get gasses (which propel the bullet) and byproducts of incompletely burned material (fouling). Both are corrosive due to the resultant chemicals formed.

Pyrodex contains, among other things Potassium Perchlorate. That is the material with which people take issue. Many have complained, "Awe come on we're just shootin stuff- , this isn't Chemical Science here!"

Unfortunately it *is* Chemical Science. Any chemist (and any advanced chemistry student) who is also schooled in metallurgy and corrosion can understand and explain the difference in corrosion vis-a-vis chlorates and steel.

It has been proven in various scientific tests that when fired in a gun, the residues from Potassium Perchlorate (whether via "corrosive primers" from pre WW1 eras or via any powder mix), are particularly corrosive to steel (not so much to wrought iron) at a microscopic level and is particularly difficult to stop once this corrosion gets started. This was very well known in the early 1900's and became the topic of the "corrosive primers" discussions in the past.

It is because of this particular "perchlorate corrosion" associated with Pyrodex that people are upset.

The big advantage In My Opinion to Pyrodex is that it is not classified in the same manner as BP, and thus is treated in the same manner as Smokeless for transport and storage. To quote my Chemist friends:

"Potassium perchlorate is a low-order detonating compound. But when you mix it in with a bunch of other things it is now longer capable of going low-order detonation." .... (Thus it is less sensitive than BP) .

Also "Compared to potassium nitrate, the potassium perchlorate simply provides more oxygen in a shorter period of time." so you need to use less Pyrodex than BP *BY WEIGHT*

Thus we have established:
- Both BP and Pyrodex are corrosive. But not in the same way.
- Both can be cleaned - but Pyrodex must be cleaned quickly

one must pay attention to the nasty details.

the big issue is that if perchlorate salts are missed during cleaning the resulting corrosion is initially subtle but aggressive. Further, depending upon conditions some folks will have nastier experiences than others.

This sort of corrosion is more easily seen and dealt with in C&B revolvers than in closed-breech ML. The corrosion is even less apparent if Pyro is used in cartridges. But the brass cases can show more rapid fouling than with BP.

I have contacts in the Very High End ML gunsmith community who have dissected modern made traditional ML rifles and analyzed the corrosion to the Breech. To a man they are all able and willing to identify the unique perchlorate corrosion and evaluate how badly the breech has been compromised.

The basic problem is clearly that the perchlorate residue has not been adequately cleaned, thus allowing corrosion to proceed. Whether the corrosion is due to BP or Pyro is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the appropriate cleaning solvent was not used.

Lately the advert is that Pyro "is no more corrosive" than BP. That statement, whilst technically correct in some ways, is misleading to folks without telling them exactly what cleaning product *will* kill the "corrosive salts".

It is unfortunate that "back in the day" Pyrodex was in fact advertised and marketed as a BP substitute that did not require the kind of cleaning that BP needs. That was both unfortunate and wrong, and we can blame the "marketeers" and their usual hype.

In fairness to the marketeers it is nothing different than advertizing that "Kedz Sneakers make you run faster and jump Higher" or that "Koldgate toothpaste makes your smile whiter".

Unfortunately, once the product is purchased and used, the reality of the situation strikes home, at times with a vengence, and the marketeers are nowhere around to pay the piper.

----
Regarding The Cleaning of Perchlorate Salts

It appears that it is no longer generally well known that "modern bore cleaning solvents" are not effective on chlorate salts; this does unfortunately include Hoppe's No 9.

It used to be generally well known that "hot soapy water kills the salts" - however it is not really killed, but flushed away.

Some feel that that a strong lye soap is the key, whilst others maintain that the hottest water possible is the cure.

However, being a pragmatist, if one is using very hot soapy water "which one does it" becomes irrelevant :-)

Some feel that the vinegar in Windex will do it, this I do not know, but I doubt it. Vinegar will only neutralize alkalies, not salts.

whilst one fellow believes "Hoppes says right on the bottle 'neutralizes corrosive salts'", there is an excellent discussion seen here on THR:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-571391.html

with excellent points by Jim Watson, which if I may snip his statements:

snip-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hoppes does not neutralize the corrosive salt (potassium chloride) from chlorate primers.
Nothing "neutralizes" the corrosive (chloride) salts, they are already neutral.
...
{{meaning, PH neutral which he later clarifies}}
...
The only reliable way to deal with corrosive primers is with water. You can dress it up with Windex or peroxide or emulsifiable oil, but it is the water that dissolves the potassium chloride. Then dry and oil.
...
The research that showed what the problem was with newfangled smokeless ammunition came out in a paper titled "Corrosion Under Oil Films."
endsnip-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


and he later states regarding Hoppes:
snip-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The corrosive residue from chlorate (or perchlorate) primers is potassium chloride, KCl.
That is what is known as a neutral salt, the product of reaction between a strong acid and a strong base. A KCl solution is at or very near pH 7 which is as neutral as you can get. So you cannot neutralize it in a chemical sense.
...
Hoppe's main ingredients on the MSDS are kerosine and alcohol. KCl is not much soluble in either. So you would be depending on it flushing out the salt physically.
...
endsnip-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In the book "Gunsmithing" by Roy Dunlap, the author writes:
"Water must be introduced to the chlorate or salt-containing primer mixtures ... Oil will not disolve salt..."

And A wonderful post by Jowen Lawson here:
http://pistolsmith.com/workshop/9338...-cleaning.html

briefly discusses the issue and the "fix" by the U.S. Army:
extremely thorough cleaning of the firearm using boiling water and Government Issue soap.

It is my opinion that the only "magical property" behind GI soap is that it is already issued :-)

----------------------
Thus we can see that the solution (pun intended) is soap and hot water - In my humble opinion, the hotter the water the better. Heats up all the metal and provides a self drying feature :-)

More Hivernaughts than I can count have been cleaning their smokepoles after dark by the using simmering water from the pot on the coals of the campfire. I do recall laughing hysterically at one hairy friend who mixed up his hot water cleaning cup with his hot coffee cup.

I am told by my Chemist acquaintances that soap is in fact a "surfactant" - ie: a mystical material that breaks the surface tension of water and thus promotes or enhances the solvent action of the water.

WRT "harsh lye soap" referred to in the GI cleaning link - all real "soap" is lye and fat. I am told that Ivory is one of the last of the true "soaps" on the market. I am unsure where the "harsh" part comes from.

Finally, this information vis-a-vis the most effective method of cleaning Pyrodex perchlorate residue. From my friend The Mad Monk, chemist and BP specialist:

"In dealing with Pyrodex residue the key is to use large volumes of warm water. Seventeen parts of potassium perchlorate in the powder. During powder combustion the oxygen atoms are released leaving a large number of crystals of potassium chloride scattered over the surfaces in the bore. This potassium chloride is poorly soluble in water. If anything else is dissolved in the water, other than a soap, the potassium chloride crystals are nearly insoluble in the water. The potassium chloride crystals are also kinda picky as to what kind of soap will encapsulate them to be carried away in the water if they don't dissolve. "

He offers further discussion as substantiation but I expect I am overly verbose enough for most folks :-)

Thus when shooting pyro, the advised method of cleaning according to my chemist friend is hot water and lots of it! I am sure that vigorous scrubbing with appropriate brushes will help as well, and any way that one can provide further access the better (ie: remove nipples from revolver cylinders, etc) .

hope this helps
yhs
prof marvel

Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions and Providing Useless Items to the Gentry Since 1822
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[44 Dave]

It doesn't matter what powder I shoot I always do a "pre-clean" before I leave the range. Also keeps the worst of the burnt powder smell from following me home.

[rodwhaincamo]

Maybe T7 contains the percolates as well, but it doesn’t seem to be nearly as corrosive. The is the only test I’ve seen conducted. This after 4 days in a MO summer garage. The Pyrodex and BP plates were cleaned with a wire wheel but the T7 was just rinsed off. While not pristine it is certainly is relatively good shape, especially compared to the other two. Unfortunately this was the only pic he still had. The post cleaning pics were pretty nasty.

[thallub]

Yep, it's fashionable for black powder folks to blame potassium perchlorates for rusting problems with Pyrodex. The perchlorates in Pyrodex do not cause the rusting problem.

Like black powder, Pyrodex also contains sulfur. Sulfur is the problem with Pyrodex.

BTW: Except for BH 209, all the black powder substitutes contain potassium perchlorate. Except for Pyrodex, none of those substitutes are unduly corrosive.

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/u...en-sds-new.pdf

http://www.alliantpowder.com/downloads/sds/Black_MZ.pdf

Yep, every year i would get several neglected muzzleloaders whose owners expected me to work miracles prior to deer season. Most were inline rifles. The breech plugs were usually frozen and the bores badly rusted. Very few of the owners appreciated my efforts to make their guns serviceable.

i stopped messing with neglected muzzleloaders.

[Hawg]

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't keep my guns in a garage.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by thallub

Yep, it's fashionable for black powder folks to blame potassium perchlorates for rusting problems with Pyrodex. The perchlorates in Pyrodex do not cause the rusting problem.

Like black powder, Pyrodex also contains sulfur. Sulfur is the problem with Pyrodex.

BTW: Except for BH 209, all the black powder substitutes contain potassium perchlorate. Except for Pyrodex, none of those substitutes are unduly corrosive.

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/u...en-sds-new.pdf

http://www.alliantpowder.com/downloads/sds/Black_MZ.pdf

Yep, every year i would get several neglected muzzleloaders whose owners expected me to work miracles prior to deer season. Most were inline rifles. The breech plugs were usually frozen and the bores badly rusted. Very few of the owners appreciated my efforts to make their guns serviceable.

i stopped messing with neglected muzzleloaders.

I'm not surprised by this and I guarantee it's probably newer hunters who've not dealt with muzzleloaders before and are listening to dolts behind a counter at a big box store or sporting goods store who know nothing beyond what their managers tell them to say during training.

Manager: "Yeah, so when they ask if they have to clean their muzzleloader, tell them no so we can sell them another one after the first one has rusted out."

It doesn't help either when many of the big channels on Youtube also don't know what they're talking about when it comes to substitutes and the necessity of cleaning them. They know BP=rust and that subs aren't BP so that means no rust. WRONG!

[Hawg]

I lived in Florida for a number of years, back in the 90's, and it was a high humidity area also. But my house had a heat pump, and inside it was generally not humid. Shoot it, leave it out in the summer humidity for a couple days (for science ).

Why would I want to do that? I'm not talking extremes. I'm just saying under reasonable conditions there's no need to clean the same day.

[prof marvel]

Originally Posted by thallub

Yep, it's fashionable for black powder folks to blame potassium perchlorates for rusting problems with Pyrodex. The perchlorates in Pyrodex do not cause the rusting problem.

Like black powder, Pyrodex also contains sulfur. Sulfur is the problem with Pyrodex.
....

My Good Thallub -

I would like to respectfully disagree. Your results may vary from mine and mine from Hawg and my other friends here but pray be civil enough not to make back-handed insults like the above.

To dismiss a science-based discussion as " fashionable for black powder folks to blame potassium perchlorates for rusting problems with Pyrodex." is a disservice to those who can think and discuss complicated matters calmly and intelligently.

BP also contains sulfur but no potassium perchlorate. The biggest differences are the additions of cyanides and perchlorates to Pyrodex. BP and Pyrodex are clearly diffferent chemical compounds and show different patterns of both corrosion and fouling.

I myself and those metalurgical and chemical experts and BP expert consultants I have corresponded with over the last 30 some-odd years have never had BP give us the sort of pervasive, "hard-to-kill" fine rust and virtually microscopic pitting that Pyrodex can produce. These folks tested various powders in separate cheap (to them - they like the custom flints and caplocks) hawken style rifles then dissected the barrels lengthwise and analyzed the entire thing, especially the patent breeches and breechplug.

They found specific patterns of corrosion particular to Pyrodex and a so-called "Perchlorate signature" that had not been seen since the end of the "corrosive primers" that I previously mentioned. .

I still use Pyrodex and 777 in my C&B revolvers, but I make certain to QUICKLY clean thoroughly with hot water and soap, usually using grated Ivory bars. I also make certain to scrub with brass brushes and/or fine choreboy if needed. A thorough drying and oiling finishes the task and then I seldom see any sign of the dreaded Pyro blossoms.

BTW there is no magic to soap or which soap. Soap is merely a "surfactant", ie, a
compound that lower the surface tension between two liquids, between a gas and a liquid, or between a liquid and a solid. I could go into the types: anionic, nonionic, cationic, and amphoteric; I could go into detergents, wetting agents, emulsifiers, foaming agents, and dispersants; I could go intot eh organic chemistry involved... but I won't bore everyone.

water works. soap and water works. don't use fancy solvents . don't use oil prior to cleaning with water. most BP cleaning mixes folks swear by have lots of water in them.
If it works for you, more power to ya.

Your results may vary .

[mehavey]

. . . soap and water works . . .

^^^^ THIS ^^^^

That said, it makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE as to exactly WHICH soap . . .

In descending order ;
- Palmolive Ultra Original Dish Liquid
- Mrs. Meyer's Clean Day Dish Soap Lemon Verbena
- Seventh Generation Natural Dish Liquid, Fragrance Free
- Dawn Ultra Dishwashing Liquid Dish Soap, Original Scent
- Puracy Natural Liquid Dish Soap Sulfate-Free Dishwashing Detergent, Green Tea & Lime

(Guys, you can't just makes this stuff up)

Personally, I religiously use Whatever-I-Find-Under-the-Sink brand.
. . . and like Brylcreem, a little dab'll do ya

[noelf2]

Why would I want to do that? I'm not talking extremes. I'm just saying under reasonable conditions there's no need to clean the same day.

You don't need to experiment. rodwhaincamo showed us an example of a previous science experiment. I'm from Missouri. You can't tell me anything. You have to show me.

[thallub]

To dismiss a science-based discussion as " fashionable for black powder folks to blame potassium perchlorates for rusting problems with Pyrodex." is a disservice to those who can think and discuss complicated matters calmly and intelligently.

Prof Marvel:

My research and personal experience means nothing to the "experts". i hold two masters degrees and most of a PHD: Am perfectly capable of thinking for myself. None of this muzzleloader stuff approaches rocket science in complexity.

Yep, Mad Monk is an interesting guy but he gets things wrong sometimes.


i'm looking at a cheap CVA rifle bought in 1999 or 2000. That rifle has fired at least 3,000 rounds using Pyrodex. The bore is like new. That rifle has never been cleaned with hot water and soap. My rifles are cleaned using patches wetted with tap water-period!!!

Today most of my muzzleloader shooting is with Black MZ that contains a big slug of potassium perchlorate. During hunting season my guns sometimes go uncleaned for weeks. i've never had any problem with rust.

The residue from firing Black MZ is less corrosive than the unburned powder itself. The bore of a gun loaded with Black MZ for a prolonged period of time will often have crazing and very small pits where the powder sat.

i've done my own tests on steel plates. My results were similar to photos posted by rodwhaincamo.

[SIGSHR]

Years ago I read an article on musket cleaning by a Civil War reenactor, he recommended windshield washer fluid, the cheaper the better. For my Charleville it's dish detergent, brand makes no difference, hot-boiling water where possible, let it soak for 15 minutes or more.