Full Auto - of any real use?

[armoredman]

Bourbon, nice that the laws have evolved to address many of the issues raised in that case 30 years ago, Stand Your Ground, Castle Doctrine, etc. Arizona has never had a "duty to retreat", thankfully, and we also recognize the right to carry lawfully owned NFA items concealed with no permit required. Yes, you can strap on your National Registry registered MP5K under your jacket in AZ and stroll about town, mindful of the signs, but if you use it, it will go bye bye for a long time while the trial goes down.
I have only been on one jury involving a firearm, and even then it was alarming the display of ignorance from my fellow jurors about firearms and how they actually work, even in this state. Bet on the jury being picked for deliberate ignorance.

[kozak6]

Whoah there, Scrooge McDuck. Transferable MP5's are what, $40,000?

Do any Class III dealers offer financing? I'm thinking I would probably have to go with a 60 month loan.

[DMK]

Transferable MP5's are what, $40,000?

For $40k, I can buy both a really nice carry gun and a used Corvette to get me out of the trouble zone very expediently.

[armoredman]

Somewhat cheaper and available right now. Still WAY out of my price range!
http://www.jgsales.com/sten-mkii-sub....-p-94405.html

[AK103K]

You guys are late to the game. I only paid $800 for my MP5 (which is about all they are really worth). Then again, back in then 80's, that's what things were going for.

You can thank Ronnie for the increase, he signed the bill.

[Radny97]

Bump fire stocks are about $100. Just sayin

[TRX]

My Ingram M11A1 SMG is just about useless as a firearm. The cyclic rate is ridiculously high; it's a two or three burst weapon for a newbie. It consumes .380 ACP at around $11 per *second* of operation; that's probably faster than you could consume $100 bills by setting them on fire. Since it's a one-hand weapon firing from an open bolt, accuracy is more like "north, south, east, west" instead of MOA. It's only a .380, but the cyclic rate makes shooting it similar to holding a rabid weasel.

On the other hand, it's loads of fun to shoot, and you can annoy bystanders by showering them with hot brass...

[AK103K]

The MAC's are meant to be shot with the stock extended and using a suppressor or muzzle extension, and/or with a two hand grip. If you shoot them this way, they are quite controllable.

If you're shooting it with the stock closed and one handed, you're just asking for trouble and likely pain.

Guns like the MAC's that have the grip amidships, tend to want to rock on that axis when fired. If you're shooting them without the stock, they tend to want to run up and back towards you. I believe that's what happened with that girl who shot the instructor a few years back, and that was with the stock out yet.

When shot with the stock out, and using a two handed grip, the same as you would with your handgun, they are very controllable and easily shot.

Open bolt guns take a little getting used to at first, but are easily shot once you get used to them. The bolt travel is a bit disconcerting if you're not used to it, but easily adapted to.

You do need to be aware of a few things with the open bolts safety wise, as they do have a different manual of arms. What "looks" like the gun is safe (bolt locked open) is really just the opposite, and the gun is ready to go.

You need to drop the mag before you drop the bolt when making it safe. If you don't, the gun will fire. You also have to make sure you get the bolt fully back and locked before letting go of it. It only needs to go rearward enough to strip a round and it will likely fire if let go. Most are also are not drop safe.

These are all things that need be explained to anyone firing them prior to letting them shoot the gun. If not, you're doing so at your own and others peril.

[jmorris]

Full auto hand guns don't shoot as wildly as some might believe, I guess if you are not holding them right shooting a single shot pistol will give you problems though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c7OZoOBYc0

[Skans]

A full-auto carbine like the AR15 is quite useful. Yes, it is primarily an offensive weapon! No, it is not meant for defending oneself against muggers, but as one person has pointed out it can be useful in defending your home or business against a violent mob or gang.

All those who claim belt-fed autos are wonderful, but magazine fed full autos just waste ammo are wrong. You are forgetting several things:

1. This isn't the 1970's where M16's come in one flavor equipped with one 30 round magazine. AR/M16's come in many different calibers and configurations.

2. Drums. That's right, GOOD drums! Compact Drums. Drums that work and can keep up with burst or full-auto fire. How many 50rnd drums can you carry? I know that I can carry at least 5 or 6, perhaps more. That's up to 600 rounds! Not bad.

3. Interchangeable barreled uppers - Takes only a few seconds to swap out a barrelled upper if it gets too hot or is destroyed from sustained full-auto fire. Probably less time that it takes to change out a barrel on an M60.

4. Heavy Barrels / Fluted Barrels - can absorb and dissipate heat better than the old pencil barrel AR's.

5. Rate Reducers - if running through too much ammo is an issue or control-ability, add a rate reducer.

5.56 full-auto fire is controllable and with practice you can keep it on target. If I can do this with an AC556 in a Sage/SCAR stock, it can certainly be done with an M16.

The MAC's are meant to be shot with the stock extended and using a suppressor or muzzle extension, and/or with a two hand grip. If you shoot them this way, they are quite controllable.

As for full-auto M10's, you guys are still living in the 70's! The Lage stock is breathing new life and usefulness into the old Scar-Face gun: http://max-11.com/

For those of you who STILL think full-auto isn't as good as semi-auto; play a little paintball with a semi-auto against those with full-auto guns and then let me know how you did.

[AK103K]

I suppose the surge in the Lage stuff is due to the MACs (later generations anyway) being about the cheapest way to get into full auto these days.

I notice they are trying to turn them into anything but a "MAC". Cool stuff still.

[Tactical Jackalope]

For suppressive fire, mostly.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Those Lage MACs are in a whole different league than the original. Very shootable. However, if you get an original MAC and try to shoot it Chuck Norris style, the place you are aiming is probably the safest place to be.

[AK103K]

You're absolutely right there!

My kids always used to laugh at the movies when they saw that crap, or anything like it.

[Skans]

the M10 is the best full-auto deal going right now. If I was smart, I'd invest in a couple!

[jmorris]

the place you are aiming is probably the safest place to be.

Cute but inaccurate.

[AK103K]

Cute but inaccurate.

Not sure what you're context is here, but it's not quite right in both respects.

Fired ala Chuck, with no stock and one handed, its a pretty accurate statement, especially if you have no experience with one.

If you're referring to the guns being inaccurate, that is not an accurate statement, and especially if you do have experience with them.

[ShootistPRS]

Reality check?
Using a full auto gun to protect your home or business, what percentage of hits versus fired can you realistically expect? With a semi auto you can aim and fire or, if you are good, you can sweep fire like I do with metal plates. You move from the first to the last target without stopping the movement. You hit each target and move to the next in one smooth motion.
In reality after one or two thugs are hit they are more likely to move off. Either way you are not sending misses down range that might hit by-standers.
Running a full auto takes a lot of control if it is to be effective. Going all Rambo will run you out of bullets long before you get all the bad guys, even if they all line up nice for you. You need a very large number of rounds to use at full auto compared to the number of rounds necessary with a semi-auto.

Thugs and looters run when they are fired upon. You are unlikely to be up against a military or paramilitary force that will simply destroy you before you run out of ammo. A well placed concussion grenade from a launcher will make your full auto useless. So, what is a practical use of a full auto? To enjoy shooting it at a specified event at a safe location. They are a real rush! but practical offensive or defensive roles for civilian use are just a fantasy. (IMHO)

[kozak6]

A full-auto carbine like the AR15 is quite useful. Yes, it is primarily an offensive weapon! No, it is not meant for defending oneself against muggers, but as one person has pointed out it can be useful in defending your home or business against a violent mob or gang.

Yeah, but a transferable AR15/M16 costs up to $30,000.

That will buy a lot of fortification, security cameras, and armed guard service.

[dakota.potts]

Absent any NFA restrictions, I have often thought that a two round burst would be perfect in a defensive firearm. Your sight picture might be very short and limited, and having two rounds on one sight picture could be very beneficial. Would also increase the effectiveness of a lot of low recoil carbine rounds like 5.56 or 9mm.

While I do think it's our right to own full auto weapons and might be useful for defending your state, country, or large patches of property, I don't think it would be super beneficial for the majority of what most civilians encounter as self defense.

A .22 with a large magazine, red dot sight, and suppressor would have a whole lot of lead output without just about any recoil or noise... but I would hope the user of such had a lot of land surrounding as I don't trust buildings to stop even a .22.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by jmorris

Cute but inaccurate.

If you can hip-shoot a MAC-10 in each hand from a Desantis rig and do better than what I suggested, you're a better man than I*

*To be fair, the classic Chuck picture is actually micro-Uzis, which are easier to control than a MAC-10.

[DMK]

Full auto hand guns don't shoot as wildly as some might believe, I guess if you are not holding them right shooting a single shot pistol will give you problems though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c7OZoOBYc0

Wow, nice recoil control. That is convincing, but would require a lot of practice. Most people wouldn't be able to do that (or should I say wouldn't put the practice time in to be able to do that.)

[DMK]

Absent any NFA restrictions, I have often thought that a two round burst would be perfect in a defensive firearm. Your sight picture might be very short and limited, and having two rounds on one sight picture could be very beneficial. Would also increase the effectiveness of a lot of low recoil carbine rounds like 5.56 or 9mm.

It's all about trigger control. I was once handed a full auto (not 3 round burst) ar15 at the range with one 30 rd mag. Just a standard 20" A2 rifle with iron sights.

Even having never fired one before, I was easily able to put 2 and 3 round bursts on my 6" targets @ 50y through the whole magazine. That was literally with no training or instruction other than watching others do it.

If the NFA never existed, I'd definately have select fire in all my AR15s

[g.willikers]

Semiauto vs bump fire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddPTyoV-Irc

[DMK]

Bump fire is not the same as full auto.

With full auto you are gripping the gun tightly and pushing it back into your shoulder to manage recoil and hold the sight picture on target.

With bump fire, you are intentionally holding the gun loosely to allow it to recoil freely and holding your trigger finger steady so the gun can move back and forth against it.

Bump fire is using poor technique to get around poor legislation.