Hunting Pups and Copperheads Just Don't Mix

[Rich Lucibella]

One concern I've had with my Catahoula Leopard Dog is snakes. This pup is a born tracker; very "nosy"; by the time he was 3 months old, he'd already brought back rotting deer leg, dead frogs, unknown bones and one self-killed rat snake. Miko Wattah ("Chief Hunter") is somewhat appropriate

I was determined to break him of the snake interest and have used a training collar on two snakes so far; the one he killed and an eagle-killed rattler in Montana. Evidently, I should have offered a few more lessons.

On July 4th, he sniffed up something in a crevice under the garage at my NC hideout. He gave a short yelp and stuck his nose back in, presumably to scold the offending creature. The next yelp was louder and he retreated. Investigating the incident, we saw a few bees and assumed he'd been stung. 15 minutes later we were certain that was no bee sting. We pulled a shortish Copperhead out of the hole. He succumbed immediately to repeated blunt force head trauma and now sits in the freezer.

The rapidity and size of the reaction was truly frightening as we attempted to find an emergency vet in the boonies on 4th of July. Mik had been bit just under the nose and a second time, two inches lower, on his left lip. We were lucky to get an immediate return call from a local animal hospital. After 3 injections, he was released with further antibiotics. Today the swelling is much down and we hope he's out of danger, though he still looks miserable and is quite lethargic.

Lesson offered:
If you have a hunting dog in snake country, do yourself a favor and get a decent electronic training collar. Get that pup on a snake that is either non-poisonous or dead and make it crystal clear that these are not critters to mess with. A few moments of brief pain will inoculate your pup (and you) from the extended anguish we're currently going thru.
Rich

For comparison, here's the "normal" Mik, prepared for a training session.



The rest were taken within 45 minutes of the snake encounter. Apologies for quality; they were taken in the truck, with a cell phone camera as a buddy rushed us to the vet.

[Rich Lucibella]

Note the swelling in the neck....that was the one that really had us concerned.





Like I said: Pups and snakes do not mix!
Rich

[Russ5924]

I have two dogs that just won't leave a snake alone. So far they haven't run up against any of the poison ones.We lived in NY and now have moved to FL, I just hope they stay away.In NY I called the dogs in and the one was holding is mouth funny I told him to drop it he spit out about a 16 inch snake still alive how he got that whole thing in his mouth I will never know.Threw it outside and it took of. Just glad the wife wasn't around at the time

[Capt. Charlie]

Your pup's lucky, Rich. Copperheads are the least venomous of N. American venomous snakes, but they're no slouch, either. At one time, I was an avid collector of snakes, including "hot" snakes. During a force-feeding in the lab, I got nailed in the hand by a Southern Broad-banded Copperhead. Picture someone driving a couple of 20 penny nails into your hand and then pouring battery acid into the holes. That's what it feels like. Copperhead venom contains proteins and enzymes that have hemotoxic, myelotoxic, and cytotoxic effects, but it isn't likely to kill a medium sized, healthy dog. The real danger comes into play in incidents exactly like yours. Dogs are most frequently struck in the face, and the danger is in the swelling obstructing the airway. Later on, the swelling shuts down circulation locally causing "compartment syndrome", that can result in gangrene. The older antivenins made by Wyeth Labs were risky. The risk of anaphylaxis from a reaction to horse serum made it almost as dangerous as the venom. The newer Crofab antivenin is safer, but still carries some risk. But sadly, you'd be surprised at the number of vets that don't keep it on hand. On the bright side, at least you weren't in Africa with puff adders, boomslangs, Russell's Vipers, saw-scaled vipers, mambas and so on and so on and so on.

[BreacherUp!]

Damn Capt, I'll be sure to PM you next time I have snake problems. Lots of knowledge banging around your brain housing group.
Oh, and glad your dog's OK Rich.

[impact]

I'm Glad your Catahoula is going to be ok. I have a Yellow Catahoula that is 7 months old and I just fell in love with the breed. I had two till someone stold the other

The rancher that has the dogs has a female that looks alot like your male. he told me today to come get the dog! . Rocky needs another dog to play with.

I know that a dog can survive a snake bit with no problem but the pics of your dog looked nasty. I'm glad you took him to a vet and he is going to be ok.

I don't know if you ever had catahoulas before? But wait till that dog gets older! he will be your shadow.

[Rich Lucibella]

Damn Capt, I'll be sure to PM you next time I have snake problems.

+1

Thanks, Capt, You forgot to mention the Black Mamba. On my second trip to Africa I had one strike into the bed of an open Land Cruiser, with me in back. I was talking to the trackers behind me when it occurred and they suddenly DUCKED!

Lord provides. Snakes have very poor vision and often miss.That one hit the side of the truck.

Impact-
My first. I'm sold!!!
At four months, he's already more concerend about threats to me than threats to him. Great Dog.....please don't tell the AKC!!!!


Rich

[azrael]

Capt Charlie,
You would be surprised at how many HOSPITOLS do not keep antivenom on hand for the common copperhead here in NC...

In one of the larger hospitols around here, a youing boy came into the emergency room with a snake bite to the ankle (lastweek)...Turned out a sub-adult copperhead got a chunk of him and he turned symptomatic almost immediately...Well no worries, they can just hit him with the antivenom right?...ahhh then they figured out that they didnt have any on hand...Luckily they found some at another hospitol...

Problem was time...They had to cut him to get the swelling down in several places on his leg before the antivenom got there...Kids gonna have scars from that one for the rest of his life

BTW...speaking of "hot" snakes (I like corns and kings) there is a dude in Burlington NC that owns a Monocled Cobra as well as a Gaboon Viper...Dude even handles the things alone!!! dude has some issues!

Rich,
I worry for your dog...once a dog thinks of something as a "toy" it is hard to break them of the habit...2 or 3 snakes and a shock collar arre really the only way to break him of the habit...


Sweety will be here in 6 weeks!
Sweety

[Rich Lucibella]

Azrael-
The snake that got him is defrosting on the counter now. Shock collar is charging.

BTW, they did not administer antivenom:
- IV Fast Acting anti-inflammatory
- IV Long Term anti-inflammatory
- IV Antibiotics
- Long Term Antibiotics

For humans also, I'm told antivenin is quickly falling out of favor as it's said to cause more problems than it resolves. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20020401/1367.html
Rich

[xXStarScreamXx]

Eat it, mmmmm i havent had snake in so long.

Makes me miss arizona and the mojave desert in So.Cal

[Capt. Charlie]

Dave

Splitting of the skin (fasciotomy) sometimes becomes necessary when the swelling of the underlying tissues exceeds the skin's ability to stretch. This compresses the tissue and stops blood flow, causing it to "stagnate" (for lack of a better term) in localized areas, or "compartments", hence the term "compartment syndrome". It's then that it becomes necessary to debride the area. There is some controversy about when to do this. The most graphic pictures you see on the Internet of snakebite are more due to the fasciotomy than they are to the actual effects of the venom. They ain't pretty. The "proper" treatment for snakebite has been revised and revamped so many times, even by medical experts, that it makes me dizzy. Everything from whiskey to potassium permanganate to stun guns to... you name it. Most of 'em did more damage than good. A lot of the outdoor magazines right now are touting the use of a stun gun to neutralize the venom. This is bad news as it doesn't work. The proteins and enzymes that make up venom are super complex and little understood, but one thing is clear: Both proteins and enzymes and held together by strong, co-valent bonds that something like a stun gun simply can't break. The ONLY way to neutralize a venom is to alter its molecular structure, literally turning it into something else that's harmless. That's the tricky part, and one that nobody's figured out how to do yet (at least without killing the patient ) The people that swear by a stun gun are forgetting something: Pit vipers can deliver a dry bite (no venom), and in fact do, quite commonly. Venom is precious to a snake. It's his only way of putting dinner on the table, and he won't waste it in self defense unless he absolutely has to. Having said that, there are snakes that do not, ever, deliver a dry bite. Rich's black mamba is one of those. Untreated, they are one of the very few snakes on the planet that have a 100% mortality rate. Their venom isn't the most toxic (Inland Taipan of Australia holds that distinction), but that, coupled with an 11 foot snake that can reach speeds of 14 mph, and can and does actively go after people (only snake on earth that will actually pursue and attack), makes it in my book the most dangerous snake on earth. I would NEVER have one in my collection. Just too dangerous.

Rich,

I'm surprised that they didn't give Benedryl as well. I'm no vet, but please! be careful with long term anti-inflammatories. Especially Rimadyl and Deramaxx. I'm saying that because I lost a dog to them. They destroyed her liver and kidneys, and when I looked into it (too late), I found that these things have killed a LOT of dogs. Don't keep your pooch on it any longer than you absolutely have to. Seems every NSAID out there has some nasty side effects in both dogs and people .

[Rich Lucibella]

Capn-
Your posts got my curiosity up and so I rechecked my info, which was provided me by the Emergency Vet. Far as I can tell, the newer antivenins (sheep?) carry very little risk of reaction and are indicated in this type of case. I suspect he didn't stock antivenin and that's the reason he claimed it's no longer recommended. (My recollection is that the refrigerated shelf life is quite short.)

I specifically offered for him to keep this pup overnight in order to provide a diuretic and IV fluids. He claimed it wasn't necessary. Turns out, that is also highly recommended. They're now closed for the day, but I assure you I'll know exactly what he was injected come morning. Will post it here and would greatly appreciate your feedback.

Orals are Amoxitabs X 7 days. That, I'm certain, is antibiotic.
Rich

[Capt. Charlie]

Damned hard to find a good vet these days . I am curious to know what he gave your dog in the way of NSAID's.

Actually, antivenin (both Wyeth and CroFab) come in a vial in the form of freeze-dried crystals, and if memory serves, the shelf life is several years. Once it's mixed though, it deteriorates rapidly. Then, I think it's only good for less than a day.

I note that you travel a lot to nifty neato far-off places . I think the antivenins for exotic snakes like puff adders (NASTY bite!) is still made from horse serum. You might want to ask your doc about a sensitivity test to horse serum. I used to do it every couple of years when I was messing around with hot stuff. All it involves is injecting a tiny amount of serum under the skin and looking for a localized reaction, and it could save your life if you get tagged miles from help and you need antivenin right away. Just a thought.

[Rich Lucibella]

Capt-
Is antivenin available without a script?
Aren't each pretty much snake specific?
Rich

[Capt. Charlie]

I'm almost certain (been a long time, cobwebs ) it takes a 'scrip, but since it's not controlled, that shouldn't be a problem.

Good for more than one species? Good question with a confusing answer, meaning yes and no . Wyeth Labs made "polyvalent" antivenin, which was supposed to cover all of the Crotalidae and Agkistrodons. Now they're not so sure. It seems that the type of venoms varies wildly even within the rattlesnakes. They now know that the Mojave Green rattler's venom is predominately neurotoxic, with hemotoxins thrown in for spice, where the Southern Pacific Rattler has a predominately cytotoxic venom that causes some really nasty necrosis (similar to the puff adder). I believe (not sure) that antivenin is polyvalent for certain groups of African snakes based on venom similarities, but if you were to cover all your bases, you'd still have to stock a number of different types of antivenin. CroFab is so new that I'm not sure what all species it covers. I note that you're in S. Florida. I'm told that the Miami-Metro-Dade fire department has a special response unit called "venom one". The paramedics that man that unit are experts in snake bite, and stock antivenins for darned near everything with fangs. I think they would be the best available to advise you on what to stock for a particular area, be it S. Florida or S. Africa. I've thought several times of going on a photo safari in Africa and I've always wondered what guide services keep on hand in the way of medical supplies. Academic now though, I fear. Not only would I need a bigger piggy bank, but 9/11 has made me much more reluctant to travel overseas .

[azrael]

AND if it makes the antivenom problem any better for ya...

Check this out..

In Sept. I can walk into the Herp show in SC and buy a BLACK MAMBA if I have the cheddar...Am I the only one that worries about such things?? THis is the one snake that I have seen make the Croc hunter nervous while handling it...That tells me something!

Although a Coral Cobra might temp me


ya know...If I were ever gpoing to get into "hots" it would prolly be a copperhead...

[Capt. Charlie]

Dave

We have one gentlemen in town that has a whole room full of "10 step" snakes. He seems to have a fascination for them, but not a whole lot of sense. He has no antivenin for any of them. I know for a fact he has a Russell's Viper, a Fer-de-lance, and a Gaboon Viper, and the nearest source of antivenin for either is 150 miles away, at the Columbus Zoo. He also has a 23 foot Reticulated Python. I've already told my people that if he has a burglary or something where we'd have to search the house.... he's on his own, but then, I'd imagine a burglar would come running out, screaming.... if he can .

[azrael]

He has a Russells AND a Gaboon?? Wow power and size...Dude must have some issues...

[Rich Lucibella]

Capt-
Here's what Mik was given and what my quick search reveals as the reaons:
IV Desxamethasone: Inflammation
IV Soludelta Cortef: Shock
IV Amoxicillin: Because the two above supress the immune system
Followup Amoxicillin orally for 7 days

Any input on this?
Rich

[Capt. Charlie]

Sorry to tell you, Rich, but I'm not familiar with either dexamethasone or Soludelta Cortef. I did a little digging and there doesn't seem to be any information on the 'net linking either one directly to the treatment of snakebite. What little I could find seems to indicate that the two are used together frequently, and that both are true steroids and not NSAIDS. That would certainly justify the use of antibiotics since corticosteroids do suppress the immune system. Is there anything else that the vet gave you to give at home? If not, he should be out of the woods by now, although he might act a little goofy from the steroids for a few weeks. How's he doing, by the way?

[Rich Lucibella]

Cap-
The oral amoxicillin is the home therapy.

Looks like the vet may have been a moron. The dex and cortef were given for inflamation and shock. Antibiotics to control infection from necrosis or opportunitstic bugs.

Other than that, I suspect he left to pup to his own defenses against tissue damage from the venom. Currently all swelling and tenderness is gone and he's back to his usual terrorizing.

Rich

[Capt. Charlie]

Glad he's doing OK. I suspect that if the vet had used the same therapy on another venomous species bite, the outcome would have been tragic. I got to thinking earlier today (dangerous! ) and remembered back to about a decade ago. I was hunting snakes north of Miami in the drier, palmetto thickets, and the place was crawling with pigmy rattlers. They're tiny, and the rattle's buzz sounds like a cricket. In spite of their size, the venom they produce packs a wallop. Just another one of Florida's goodies you need to watch out for.

[Rich Lucibella]

Capt-
Started checking on some of the antivenins yesterday. Crofab, for 4 rattler species, for example:
If you can get it, it's $1800 for a two vial dose (minimum required for 1 bite); needs to be refrigerated in crystal form; and expires in about 2 years.

Multiply that times six or eight potential hot snakes in any given area and you've built up quite an "antivenin budget".
Rich

[Capt. Charlie]

$1800.?? OUCH! Looks like it's back to a fifth of Wild Turkey. I'll still die, but at least I'll die happy .

[Long Path]

I don't know how I missed this thread.

Rich, I'm so glad Doggy-Dog is okay-- that neck swelling is terrifying. Airway is the first danger.

You know, it's funny-- I don't really worry much about copperheads because I've known so many who have gotten bitten on the hands and ankles and not only survived, but didn't even seek treatment. But there's a huge difference between a full-grown man taking a dose of copperhead to a limb and a 20 lb pup taking a double shot to the snout! Miko's lucky to have received care so quick. I'm glad you discovered it so quickly.