Scattergun Technologies

[jimsbowies]

Wilson Combat does some really neat things with Remington 870's and other models. But, I've got a 870 Marine Magnum and don't want to change the appearance too much. Since Wilson will do retrofit work on a customer's gun, I'd like some expert advice from you guys. I'm considering the following: TRAK-LOCK Ghost Ring, Extended tube mag, high visibility non-binding follower, HD stainless mag tube spring and Tactical fore grip.

Your opinions?

[KSFreeman]

IMHO, have a light put on it as well. Rule 4.

Here's what I prefer (check local listings as results may vary): The old "FBI Model" 870 with grs, std. mag, short butt stock, foreend with light, sling (Wilderness sling or HK), and 4 rd. sidesaddle. There is nothing wrong with a good self-loading weapon either.

Get extra firing pins because you will break them in dry fire (or take out before). Go to skul.

Finally, I do not like lasers, phasers, wind speed indicators, "Magic" or green eggs and ham on my weapon.

[9mmMike]

This is not an expert opinion but........
Doesn't your Marine Magnum already have and extended mag tube? The follower and spring are only a couple bucks, literally.
The fancy sites are cool. Consider Vang Comp as an alternative to Wilson though.
My friend's Marine Magnum now sports a 20" rifle-sighted factory barrel. This could be plated and would look pretty good IMHO. Then you could get a longer extension and increase yuour capacity by one more (over the factory extension you should already have on that Marine Magnum).
Mike

[DeBee]

I bet you could install most of these items yourself instead of sending the gun off to Wilson... Usually, it a matter of stripping the gun and screwing on the parts- that's what I did after Wilson sent my gun back to me stating they don't work on previously modified weapons (it was drill and tapped)...

I have the 870 Police Magnum Parked with extended mag and replacement mag follower, standard stock with rounded recoil pad and military (long uncheckered) forearm. This one wears the excellent MMC Ghost rear and a Williams Shorty Ramp with a thick post.

I'm working on a 870 which might wear a one round extended mag, Speedfeed stock (maybe converted to a short stock if I get the nerve to cut it), matching short forend and the Wilson Trac-Loc with Tritium front... I might have this parked or apply some ploymer finish- hell, I may rust blue it for practice...

I am also in the school of not hanging a bunch of junk and wires (or pistol grip forends - think long and hard on that one) from the gun- I go for simple and smooth and low profile.

[DML]

Your Marine Magnum should already have a magazine extension and a stainless steel spring. The Scattergun front sight is one of the better options for the MM if it's installed right. ( With cross pin and GOOD epoxy) . I would look at another rear sight though. The Scattergun rear has limited adjustment compared to MMC or LPA. MMC makes their rear sight nickel plated and it looks good on the MM.

[Dave McC]

If anyone ever mistook me for a gunsmith, the light must have been bad. Even so, I could do most of the stuff ST or Vang do myself, and save a passle of pesos.

And, most of the stuff on that wish list are nice to haves, not essentials.

BTW, there's mag springs here pushing 3-5 decades, and I can't tell them from the newer ones. And my 870s get used in some rust friendly environments, including salt marches, goose blinds, and triple digit July days.

And, in professional and personal usage where total rounds fired from 870s must be around 50,000, never had a follower glitch up on me, metal, plastic, or whatever.

As for the GR sights, mine have peeps because they're used with slugs on deer. A bead sight is quite usable and reliable.

Here's what you really need on a "Serious" 870.

A clean trigger, about 4 lbs pull.

A stock that fits, preferably with a recoil pad.

Possibly a decent light, tho the jury's still out on this, IMO.

Lots of ammo.

That's all. The rest varies between nice to have and total uselessness.

[youngun]

Dave, you're not going to put a mag extension on that list?!

[Kilrain]

Like this?

[Dave McC]

Youngun, no. It's a very nice to have, besides the extra rounds(a dubious advantage for the private citizen) it tightens up slug groups and adds some weight at the right place for kick control, but not an essential. Top of the options list tho.

I've seen and done good work with stock 870s, and it happens every day. The big reasons are....

Expertise, which requires practice.

Fit, which isn't that hard to do.

Mindset, including committment.

The addons and mods add a little, but a cool trained hand with a stock 870 will do more good work than three marginals with race shotguns.

And we're all gearheads here, yours truly not excepted. But, it's like a 99/100 trapshooter trying to buy that last bird with a new gun when we start adding extras and the newest fad gadget.

[KSFreeman]

There goes Dave again yammering about training instead of the pursuing the "magic sword" of the gun shop commando.

[Kilrain]

Dave is right of course. No amount of gadgets, doo-dads and add ons can compensate for operator performance or operator error. I must say, however, that if you are serious enough about using a shotgun for defense that you train a lot with it, then you should be serious enough set it up for serious use.

As previosly noted, combat shotguns are, with very few exceptions, derived from hunting guns and not particularly well suited for defense work when they are in "stock" configuration. Compare an AR15 to a Benelli M1 for example. The AR15 has all the operator controls in the right spots(some would argue that the charging handle could be better placed, but not me). The Benelli is reliable, but the stock is too long(aren't they all it seems), the bolt release is on the wrong side(I hate this) and there are some uncomfortable "edges" here and there.

I believe that any modification that make the gun more reliable, user friendly, accurate or ergonomic is worth it.........if you have the money.

I agree with Dave regarding the trigger(I have never had an 870 that didn't have a workable trigger) and fit of the stock(very important for recoil control). I would add the light(you must be able to locate/identify the threat before you start blasting away) and sights(why is it that sights are so important to everyone on every type of firearm except a shotgun? I don't understand that.) I've rambled enough, must mow the lawn...........

[Dave McC]

Kilrain, if you're someplace where it's warm and sunny enough that the lawn needs mowing, I greatly envy you...

The best accessory one can have after buying a "Serious" shotgun is a case of ammo. Use up, repeat, until the weapon feels like a body part. Then, one's in a better place to decide just what addon or mod will aid the mission and what's just another Wallet-Vac.

Unfortunately, we Americans oft think that technology can substitute for expertise. Almost always it can't, but we keep trying.

If you have access to a fully accessorized "Serious" shotgun, try running a good,reality based COF with it for time and score. Next, run the same course with an out of box shotgun. If your scores and time vary more than 10%, the donuts and coffee's on me.If it's more than 5%, I'll still buy the Krispy Kremes.

Then, switch strong hands and run that same course off sided.If you shoot RH, switch to lefty. Score and time that. Unless you've serious eye of hand probs, you just got a cheap Satori on the inportance of expertise. And, the relative importance of bellsnwhistles.

I'm certainly not against mods and addons. But, real world priorities show that a trained and cool hand can shoot anything well(within reason) and a dud can't shoot worth beans. Extreme cases, yes, but life's full of extremes.

As for lights, that's a sore point. I recognise the need, but all the good ones cost more than my shotguns do, and all the ones I've tried and handled made the shotgun handle like a pig on a snow shovel, to steal a good line from Bruce Buck.

(Dismounting from soapbox)....

[KSFreeman]

Mow the lawn???

[Looking out window of home office high along the banks of the raging Wabash] All the grass is brownish! Why would you mow it?

[Tamara]

When I was 19, my shotguns were 20" tube pistol-gripped ones with no accessories. I thought the extra rounds were necessary, the pistol grip looked "cool" and the lack of accessories was because I was poor.

When I was 24, my shotguns were 20" tube, top-folding stock ones with every accessory in the book. I thought the extra rounds in the long mag tube and sidesaddle were necessary. The folding stock was to make them easy to stow in the small car or houseboat, yet leave a stock which I now knew was best for accurate shooting. The extra accessories (such as Choate forward pistol grip, laser and heat shield) were because I managed a gun shop, could afford them now, and thought they looked "cool".

When I was 28, my shotgun was a 590A1 with ghost rings and a speedfeed stock. 590 and speedfeed because I thought I needed the extra ammo, ghost rings for better sighting at long ranges. Too bad it was so long and didn't stow well in little cars or apartments.

Now my next shotgun will be a 500. 18" tube. Wood furniture is fine. Gold bead is fine, but I may go hog-wild and snap-on a tru-glo and slip on a buttstock shell holder. Beat up and used is fine. Short little gun will fit fine in car or apartment without having to fold or cut off anything.



Go figure.

[Dave McC]

It's the maturation process, Tamara. Ya grew on up(G).

I know folks who are quite fecally cognizant and have been through the whole gamut, and their "Serious" tackle runs on the simple side. NONE of them are less than deadly. It ain't the piano, it's the pianist.

[Kilrain]

It was almost 60 here yesterday and sunny. Starting the mower was a pain, ran out of gas, was constantly clogging/filling the bag. Took two hours, but got it done. Today is a little less friendly.

Dave and Tamara, you still get no argument from me regarding operator performance being paramount. I will say that there is something to be said for equipment type and quality.

Dave, I've run "serious" courses of fire with many different shotguns including Benellis, Berettas and Remingtons. True, the difference between a stock 870 and my custom gun is not much but it is there. If I can stack the deck in my favor in any way, I will. One other thing about "serious" courses of fire, if they include distance shooting with slugs, that bead sight comes up short. I know there are many folks who can shoot slugs very accurately with only a bead sight but I will bet you those same Krispy Kremes donuts that give them my 870 with real sights and their score will be better.

When you get down to it, I suppose it all depends on what you are getting ready for. One of my instructors asked his classe, "What are you getting ready for? What are you really going to do with your shotgun/pistol/rifle?" He, my instructor, did not have a magazine extension on his shotgun, he did not see a reason for it. His logic was, if it takes more that 4 rounds from a 12 gauge to solve your problem, you probably ain't gonna solve it before it solves you. There is some logic in this.

As for left hand shooting, I won't argue that point cause I can't shoot jack left handed. I will state that equipment selection is important and leave it at that.........but yes, practice, practice, practice.

[Dave McC]

Kilrain, we're probably closer in pjilosophy than you think.

My "Serious" shotguns have lots of addons and mods, but...

I got good first.

When I put anything on or changed anything it was because I saw a chance of improvement. I like stacking the odds. I did NOT do it to look cool, because my buddy had one, or because anyone told me it was a must have. And, during all this I was burning up lots of ammo, my own as well as the state's.

Your instructor sounds realistic. If an AS scenario cannot be resolved with 4 rounds, properly applied, 2 or 3 more rounds probably won't either. But we prepare for unlikely eventualities.That's why we have defensive weaponry.

"If you want peace, prepare for war"- Vegetius.

[Kilrain]

Dave, you are correct, we agree in general, it is probably more of a communication/verbage problem.

How about this, fancy gizmos and doohickeys on your gun will not improve YOUR performance but they may enhance it.

My next project, just think I'll share, is a 20 gauge youth model shotgun for my significant other. I had a chance to buy a really nice older one, 1100 model, at the last gun show but I dropped the ball....... Oh well, I shall perservere......

[gdhillard]

Check out the tactical shotgun pics in the current AR15 forum. Gary

[Shotgun364]

I think you can save yourself some $ and just order the combat sights, a 4 round sidesaddle for remingtons, and a hogue comp stock and have them installed by your local gunsmith as I did (if he/she is good). A heat shield is nice too.
Sending your MM can be costly and take time and it will only acomplish the prior. Just my 2 cents.