Thoughts on s&w 40?

[Tactical Jackalope]

Not true. ^^^^^ that last sentence.

It was made because of the use of hardball ammo failure in 9mm.

FBI wanted something better. So they went with 10mm. Agents couldn't handle it so they mad the casing shorter. ie: .40 s&w. it was marketed to LE all over the nation. Right place at the right time.

Now with hollow point technology the playing grounds in handgun calibers are almost evenly matched they're so marginal in difference.

[Sarge]

It was made because of the use of hardball ammo failure in 9mm.

Actually the 10mm was developed because one round of 9mm Winchester Silvertip did exactly what it was designed to do when fired through a felon's bicep and chest. It was designed to not 'over penetrate'. Link with autopsy photos.

That single round, fired in a wild melee of a gunfight, changed our perception of what constitutes acceptable performance from defense/duty ammunition.

But our perception is all that changed. Had the above subject been hit with an 1880's 45 Colt blackpowder load from a Colt SAA, penetration would not have been an issue. The human learning curve always forms a circle:

“You should tell someone what you know. There should be a history, so that men can learn from it.” He smiled. “Men do not learn from history. Each generation believes itself brighter than the last, each believes it can survive the mistakes of the older ones. Each discovers each old thing and they throw up their hands and say ‘See! Look what I have found! Look upon what I know!’ And each believes it is something new.” Louis L’Amour The Californios

[MercyfulFate]

I never realized people hated the .40 until I saw that James Yeager guy rail on about how it destroys guns and stuff. Not sure how true it is.

[carguychris]

...until I saw that James Yeager guy rail on about how it destroys guns and stuff. Not sure how true it is.

His video has been discussed in other threads. Most of what he says is either misinformed or grossly exaggerated.

Although I don't want to rehash everything that was discussed previously, IIRC one of the main issues is that he parrots the myth that .40S&W is a "high pressure" cartridge. While it DOES operate at higher pressure than .45ACP, .32ACP, and numerous legacy revolver cartridges, it does NOT operate at substantially higher pressure than other commonplace modern auto pistol cartridges such as 9mm Para or .357Sig.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Actually the 10mm was developed because one round of 9mm Winchester Silvertip did exactly what it was designed to do when fired through a felon's bicep and chest. It was designed to not 'over penetrate'.

That too, yes. I stand corrected! Yes, click that link.

[Westy39]

I am a recently retired Police Officer. When I first started with the PD I was issued a S&W 686, later we went to the Glock 20 (10 mm) and still later we went to the Glock 22 (40 cal). I love revolvers and semi-autos. I would suggest you go to a shooting range that rents various handguns and find what fits you. Once you find the perfect handgun enjoy it or them........ Just my 2 cents worth from the Big Sky Country.

[breakingcontact]

Run away from any "power" or this vs that conversations/threads.

Shoot all three calibers 9/40/45 if possible in the same size/model gun.

I vote 9mm/45, but if you WANT (not need) a 40 and you shoot it well, rock on with your bad self.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Just posted this in another .40S&W thread.

An email I received from cheaperthandirt

[745SW]

My handgun cartridges of choice are the 45ACP, 9mm and 38/357. At the time, decades ago, I assumed they were safe and today I feel reassured. I can’t say this about the 40S&W. Downside of the 40S&W, it has the poorest margin of safety of five pistol cartridges. This is because of the platform, 9mm, and because of the taper of the webbing of the case unlike the original 10mm.

In order starting with the greatest safety margin:

1. 9mm
2. 10mm
3. 45ACP
4. 357SIG
5. 40S&W

Like some I have seen/gathered much about handguns exploding/kabooming and feel the above info from a posting by a said forensic engineer (mechanical) to be the most interesting. The posting is from downrange.tv.com dated 2008.

Title: GLOCK -"KABOOM INFO"- HELPFUL EXPLANATION
Post by: HAWKFISH on March 19, 2008, 10:02:04 am

[Skans]

In 20 years all ammo might be gone and our guns nothing more than illegal contraband paperweights.

9mm, .40 S&W, 45acp - all very good handgun rounds, depending on intended purpose. Someone is giving you a load of crap - probably an anti.

[pgdion]

I like the .40 myself, I think it's fun to shoot. It's got extra kick but not what I'd call unpleasant. It does depend on the gun though, as with all rounds, some guns shoot it better than others. In the right gun, the .40 isn't too bad.

That said, I still like the 9mm a lot better, a lot lot better. For me the .40 and the .45 are mix it up fun calibers to take to the range. It's fun to shoot something with some extra kick once in a while (and the punch from the .40 feels pretty good). But for everything else, carry protection, competition, home defense, ect, I rely on the 9mm and simply choose the round that meets the task. Good HP's for defense, mild load 115gr FMJ for target practice, and a sort of +P 124gr FP for a little fun with the cans at the sand pit (btw - the 124gr +P sound and feel a lot like the .40 does).

So if you like the .40, by all means get the .40, but don't get a .40 because you think you need one. The other rounds will be just as effective. Focus more on the gun you want and get it in a caliber that it shoots well.

(and ammo might be a consideration as well, in order of easiest to hardest to find around here it goes: .40s&w, 38sp, .45 auto, 9mm, .380 auto. Luckily I started reloading after the last shortage and if your a member of a club, reloading supplies can still be gotten (slow, but they come in).

[KMyerK98]

I picked 40 because I wanted a bit more oomph than a 9 if I needed it and wanted more rounds than a 45. Again if I needed it in a self defense situation. Mammels on adrenaline can do some whacky things. The 40 sends more energy to target than the 9 (See specs on the ammo posted above this from "Constantine", 180 grains over 1000fps in a 40!!). And it's easier to handle (gun control) than the 45 for most folks. You should get with some of your buddies that have pistols and shoot some of each. Or find a range where you can check out different ones and try them. My son had a glock in 9 and sold it, then switched to another glock in 40.

I bought a Taurus Millenium Pro and loved it. It's a shorty for concelament and is a bit "snappy" in 40, as some have mentioned.

I liked the Taurus so much that I bought another Millenium 24/7 Tactical and liked it even more. The tactical is a full size, 5 incher. That ended the snappiness and improved my scores at USPSA but it is a bit large for concealed carry. I shoot USPSA to practice and become more proficient, not so much to compete (except with myself). And it's a ton of fun too.

So yea, if comparing calibers make sure your going apples to apples. Don't compare a full sized to a compact in different calibers.

I know of a few stories of people who bought Taurus's and hated them but mine worked flawlessly.

I believe most state troopers use the 40 or the 357sig. That's gotta mean something.

[Tactical Jackalope]

And it's easier to handle (gun control) than the 45 for most folks.

Did you seriously just say that .40 is easier to handle than .45?

What is the matter with you?

[Sarge]

The 40 will push a wider 180 as fast or faster, in many cases, than the 9 will push a 147. I believe this matters for little problems like the FBI shooting referenced earlier in this tread; and I am certain it matters on large attack dogs, etc. I was skeptical of the .40 S&W when it was introduced; but I've seen it work in the field for a couple of decades now and I'm convinced it's a better mousetrap.

If you choose the 40 over the 9mm, there are trade-offs such as increased recoil and costlier ammunition; but many .40 S&W autos can easily be converted to 9mm- but the reverse is not the case. And yes you will give up a few rounds of capacity with the .40, in like-size guns. For the ability to use bigger, heavier bullets it is a trade many of us are happy to make.

[RBid]

It's interesting to me that this thread has kept going, and hasn't completely degraded. I choose to believe that this is because the collective has come to accept that shot placement trumps everything else. That's a big step.

[Skans]

I tend to think the collective is coming around to understanding that 9mm, 40 and .45acp are all good defensive rounds. In fact, many of us have guns in all three calibers.

[pgdion]

^^^ I know I will soon. After waiting forever, my father in law finally broke out the .40's he had bought and my brother in law picked up a 96A1. So I finally got a chance to try the round out. I liked it a lot. A .40 is now on my list, I'm just trying to decide which one I should get.

[BuckRub]

Get a 9 or a 40. The 40 will be around forever.

[rc]

A .40 has a very broad range of performance. You load 180 grain bullets and you have power similar to 45 ACP, drop down to 155 grains and you can push em as fast as 115 grain bullets from a 9mm... very effective for SD with as much power as many 357 defense loads but with less flash blast. Then if you really want to step it up, 135 grain rounds at 1450fps are pretty much equal to the popular 125 grain .357 mag loading. The .40 is a niche round between 9mm and 45, but it is a very versatile and widely available round. There are fewer .40 guns in circulation because of it's late start and ammo is sometimes more available for it than 9mm which is non existant right now in California..... I personally think the .40 makes most sense when you have magazine capacity limits of 10 rounds. That's about how many fit in a typical double stack mag with little modification. A 10 shot full size 9mm is a waste of space.

Let's look at the 9mm. Load it light with 90 grain bullets and you can push 1500fps from a handgun. Standard 115 and 124 grain loads are in the 1200fps class and 147 grain subsonic loads in the 950fps class.

45 by comparison allows you to pus 185 grian bullets to only about 1050fps and 230 grain bullets to about 850 within standard pressure loads.

The .45 is a thumper but not necissarily superior to the hot 155 grain .40s in stopping power even when using 185 grain loadings in a 45.

[KMyerK98]

Constantine wrote:
"Did you seriously just say that .40 is easier to handle than .45?
What is the matter with you? "

Yes, a 40 in a full size frame is easier to handle (less recoil) than a 45 in the same weight of pistol. A 45 in a stubby 3" conceal carry is a bit more SNAPPY then a 40 in a 3" stubby conceal carry.

But what do I know - I've never shot a 45 - HA!! I just noticed the guys at USPSA with those little 45's and seeing the 2 foot flames and jerking wrists, but they still smile just like me when finished. When they run I need bigger ear phones! Can you say KA-BOOM? Yea, and I can feel it too...

[Tactical Jackalope]

You're killing me over here. Even with that explanation. I can't grasp that.

[BuckRub]

Believe it or not, he's telling you the truth. You been shooting long?

[57K]

Now on to the .40. I reload for all of my guns, and the pressure in the .40 is close to the .45acp while shooting a much lighter bullet.

What is being overlooked is the physical size of the gripframe. .40 S&W will fit into any existing 9mm with modifications made for the higher inertia the .40 S&W generates over the 9mm. In the past 10 years or so, bullet technology has improved to where 9mm is a bit closer in performance to the .40 S&W. The .45 ACP requires a larger grip frame to accommodate the longer and wider cartridge. All Glock set out to do with the .45 GAP was to fit a .45 caliber (and shorter) cartridge in a 9mm platform pistol and give standard pressure .45 ACP performance in a 9mm pistol size that is easier for officers from small females to medium size males to grip comfortably. There are 5 state LE agencies using the .45 GAP. It's certainly not dead, but, in all 5 cases the pistols used are Glocks.

The .40 S&W is an entirely different matter. Among state police agencies, the .40 S&W is THE dominant catridge. Outside of the agencies using the .45 Gap that I mentioned, there are a few agencies that use the .45 ACP and a few more using the .357 SIG like the Texas Dept. of Public safety which includes Texas Rangers, the Secret Service and a few other states.

I quoted the previous poster because he gave incorrect info on pressure. The max. standard pressure of the 9mm is 35,000 PSI, the same as the .40 S&W. 9mm +P has a higher limit of 38,500 PSI, and when using 9mm I recommend 124 gr. +P JHPs if you want to limit the difference between 9mm and .40 S&W. The majority of agencies that use 9mm are using +P 124 gr. JHPs like the excellent SPEER Gold Dot load. The .45 ACP is actually much lower in pressure than either the 9mm or the .40 S&W. The max. standard pressure for the .45 ACP is 21,000 PSI with a limit for +P at 23,000 PSI. .45 GAP pressure is identical to .45 ACP +P at 23,000 PSI, but with its shorter case it doesn't provide better performance than standard pressure .45 ACP. The 10mm is in use with a couple of state agencies and it has higher standard pressure than the standard 9mm or .40 S&W and the .357 SIG has a pressure limit of 40,000 PSI. If anyone is interested you can check these state LE agency numbers at:http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/ which is Evan Marshall's website. Find the link on .40 S&W stopping power and LE usage and you'll see a running compilation of what state LE agencies are using as far as caliber and type/brand of pistol.

For me, and as a 27 year handloader the choice is simple. The .45 ACP will cover all the ground of the .40 S&W and then some. When you move up to .45 ACP +P, it's no contest and the fact that I have large hands, the larger grip of .45 ACP pistols works better for me and I'm not talking about 1911s. I use an XDm 4.5 in .45 ACP for defense with it's larger grip and 13 round magazine. I do use +P ammo, but that's 23,000 PSI compared to 35,000 PSI for the forty. The .45 ACP offers me flexibility in handloading matched by no other service cartridge.

I also shoot 9mm quite a bit and went through about every .40 S&W pistol ever made. I was never enamored with the accuracy of .40, but I will say that I had a CZ 75B that was probably the most accurate .40 I ever fired with my best handloads.

If I had smaller hands, and the 9mm pistol size worked better for me, I'd have no problem carrying one with the caveat being it would be with +P ammo, even the 147 gr. variety that gives similar performance to the .40 S&W.

I also believe that the .40 S&W is an excellent defense cartridge and I prefer the higher energy loads in 155 and 165 gr. weights. Particularly the 165 gr. Remington Golden Saber. But a good choice in .40 S&W are the loads that have passed the FBI's penetration tests and only the 155 gr. Gold Dot is on the approved list. I don't concern myself as much as some people do with the "approved list" because my main criteria is that a load penetrates and expands sufficiently after passing through 4 layers of denim.

As a reloader, I wouldn't have any problem with the .45 GAP, either, if my hands were smaller and a 9mm platform fit my hand. All of the service cartridges will do the job. My choice of .45 ACP is based on a grip size that fits my hand with a pistol that has a total capacity of 14 rounds combined with the lower operating pressure of the .45 ACP cartridge. I'd have no problem carrying a .40 except for grip size and I could really cover that with a larger 10mm semi-automatic and load 10mm to .40 S&W performance level.

[Sarge]

The .40's forte is that it facilitates guns like the Glock 23... just about halfway between Colt Officer and Commander size, while accommodating 14 rounds of substantial bore diameter and power. Carry a G22 mag as a backup for 15 more.

I have a long and happy association with the 45 ACP, 57k. I like big-grip pistols myself but there are times when something smaller is just easier to live with. I hate to give up much bore diameter or bullet weight and the 40 offers a compromise I can live with.

I agree on the 165's in that caliber, FWIW.

[Rogervzv]

Rogervzv, you're the first person I ever seen that would say that. Here's my conclusion. The only one that I feel would make that true in any case.

You are comparing a 9mm out of a subcompact polymer. Against a .40 out of a mid sized to full sized pistol.

Actually, no. I am comparing 9mm out of a 92fs which is the only 9mm pistol I own, to the Ruger SR40c. So your conclusion is incorrect.