English side by side, and 1873 Winchester.

jones · July 11, 2002, 10:59 PM

Hi, I recently inherited two weapons that I havent been able to find out about. The first is a side by side external hammer damascus ( maybe) barreled I. Hollis & sons. 12 bore. On the under side of the barrels is 41604 and a diamond with 12 & C inside it. There are several other marks that I can't describe. One of the distinguishing marks is a brass insert round, that is set into the under side of the stock. It's about 1/2" oval and I'm thinking that it might be a balance weight of some sort? It is slightly off center. There is some scrolled ingraving, hand done, the rib between the barrels has a herring bone pattern.
I've been able to find a little about I. Hollis and sons, but not much about what guns they produced.

The other gun that I recieved is a 1873 Winchester cal.38 What it has that I haven't seen a lot of is a round barrel. It has Kings improvement on the reciever and under the lever is 1547 32A .
There is a little safe that turns about the lever. The butt plate has an opening for what I assume to be cleaning equipment?
The blueing is almost gone, and the barrel is turning brown (slightly). I havent seen too many round barrels on these guns, and this looks like it is of heavier build than most. Sort of a junior bull barrel.
Any help I could get with these guns would be highly appreciated. Thanks,

Harley Nolden · July 12, 2002, 05:37 AM

There are two companies listed a Hollis & Sons. One was owned by Charles Hollis and was located in Birmingham and London England. (1861-1900) They made high quality firearms includingSXS shotguns.

The second company was owned by Isaac. He was a gun maker and patentee. He founded his company in London England in 1861 and mfg'd sporting firearms forthe south African market and cheap guns for trade. they also built rifles forthe British government. About 1915 Hollis merged to form the company of Hillis, Bentley & Playfair. they remaind in business until 1935. Hollis also built some very good quality shotguns.

Hope this is a help
HJN

Jim Watson · July 12, 2002, 08:02 AM

Your 1873 Winchester .38 WCF/.38-40 was made in 1884.
Round barrels cost less than octagon, but are less common, most folks were apparently willing to pay the extra $1.50.
King's Improvement is the loading gate.
A brownish coloration, as long as it is smooth and not rusty, is still pretty good condition for a 118 year old rifle. How's the bore? Some Cowboy shooters still use '73s that are in good condition and not of some unusual and valuable variation.

jones · July 13, 2002, 01:50 PM

Jim and Harley, Thanks for your help. I don't get here to often, and everyone here has been really nice to me. I appreciate the help. Thanks.

The side by side is a I. Hollis, and the barrels aren't the same looking damascus that I'm familiar with. There is some scrolling and hand work about the gun, and the barrel looks somehow different from other damascus barrels that I have.

Thanks again,

Harley Nolden · July 13, 2002, 05:34 PM

The I would indicate to me that it is Issac's as they made some high quality guns also. The barrels may be "damascus finished" meaning they may have the look of damascus and may be standard steel. I have only heard of this process and may be someone may have the right ans.

HJN

July 11, 2002, 10:59 PM	#1
jones Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1999 Location: Perrysburg, NY, USA Posts: 107	English side by side, and 1873 Winchester. Hi, I recently inherited two weapons that I havent been able to find out about. The first is a side by side external hammer damascus ( maybe) barreled I. Hollis & sons. 12 bore. On the under side of the barrels is 41604 and a diamond with 12 & C inside it. There are several other marks that I can't describe. One of the distinguishing marks is a brass insert round, that is set into the under side of the stock. It's about 1/2" oval and I'm thinking that it might be a balance weight of some sort? It is slightly off center. There is some scrolled ingraving, hand done, the rib between the barrels has a herring bone pattern. I've been able to find a little about I. Hollis and sons, but not much about what guns they produced. The other gun that I recieved is a 1873 Winchester cal.38 What it has that I haven't seen a lot of is a round barrel. It has Kings improvement on the reciever and under the lever is 1547 32A . There is a little safe that turns about the lever. The butt plate has an opening for what I assume to be cleaning equipment? The blueing is almost gone, and the barrel is turning brown (slightly). I havent seen too many round barrels on these guns, and this looks like it is of heavier build than most. Sort of a junior bull barrel. Any help I could get with these guns would be highly appreciated. Thanks, __________________ jones "permits, we don't need no stinking permits!"

July 13, 2002, 01:50 PM	#4
jones Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1999 Location: Perrysburg, NY, USA Posts: 107	Jim and Harley, Thanks for your help. I don't get here to often, and everyone here has been really nice to me. I appreciate the help. Thanks. The side by side is a I. Hollis, and the barrels aren't the same looking damascus that I'm familiar with. There is some scrolling and hand work about the gun, and the barrel looks somehow different from other damascus barrels that I have. Thanks again, __________________ jones "permits, we don't need no stinking permits!"

July 12, 2002, 05:37 AM	#2
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	There are two companies listed a Hollis & Sons. One was owned by Charles Hollis and was located in Birmingham and London England. (1861-1900) They made high quality firearms includingSXS shotguns. The second company was owned by Isaac. He was a gun maker and patentee. He founded his company in London England in 1861 and mfg'd sporting firearms forthe south African market and cheap guns for trade. they also built rifles forthe British government. About 1915 Hollis merged to form the company of Hillis, Bentley & Playfair. they remaind in business until 1935. Hollis also built some very good quality shotguns. Hope this is a help HJN

July 12, 2002, 08:02 AM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	Your 1873 Winchester .38 WCF/.38-40 was made in 1884. Round barrels cost less than octagon, but are less common, most folks were apparently willing to pay the extra $1.50. King's Improvement is the loading gate. A brownish coloration, as long as it is smooth and not rusty, is still pretty good condition for a 118 year old rifle. How's the bore? Some Cowboy shooters still use '73s that are in good condition and not of some unusual and valuable variation.

July 13, 2002, 05:34 PM	#5
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	The I would indicate to me that it is Issac's as they made some high quality guns also. The barrels may be "damascus finished" meaning they may have the look of damascus and may be standard steel. I have only heard of this process and may be someone may have the right ans. HJN