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Old February 21, 2018, 06:45 AM   #176
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by Onward Allusion
^^^
So, the system needs fixing, right???
Yes, the existing system needs "fixing." It does not need "expanding" or "extending."
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Old February 21, 2018, 06:53 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Onward Allusion
I don't believe fixing a problem (and most will agree that there is a problem) is appeasement or compromise.
I don't believe you've recommended anything that would fix a problem.

Narrowing the scope of a right is a compromise with those who would narrow the scope of that right.
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Old February 21, 2018, 07:05 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by turkeestalker View Post
From reading through these seven pages it would seem the general consensus is that the fault is in the application, implementation, and enforcement of the current system, not the system itself.

Isn't that the point to start?
Some may believe that, but I wouldn't call it a general consensus. In fact, the idea that such a system will always work is flawed. The accuracy of an individual's personal records will always be questionable, and often out-of-date. And even if accurate, those records are not necessarily a reliable indicator of future actions on the part of an individual.

I'm not saying that the system should be scrapped. I am saying that, even with improvements (or "fixing"), it will never reach an acceptable level of effectiveness for those opposed to gun ownership.

So it's not really a good starting point in my view.
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Old February 21, 2018, 08:19 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by BBarn View Post
And even if accurate, those records are not necessarily a reliable indicator of future actions on the part of an individual.
I don't think going the "Minority Report" route is a good idea. Imposing penalties/punishment on someone for what they *might* do is poor policy, IMHO.
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Old February 21, 2018, 10:02 AM   #180
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I agree. It wasn't my intent to suggest otherwise.
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Old February 21, 2018, 10:20 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Onward Allusion
Yes, most of them passed the existing background check system, hence, the need to fix it. If it is funding for LE devoted to the task or an expansion of the current system, so be it.
You can’t tear down a log cabin and build a skyscraper on the same foundation. The current background check system is trying to make do with a 1968 law that heavily plagiarized 1930s Nazi Germany firearms law. The licensing of firearms dealers, the record keeping, - all of it - is designed using 1960s thinking and 1930s levels of technology. Look at the NFA process - it is literally 1930s in every sense.

It was an ineffective system that was dangerous to civil rights in 1968. Automating parts of it with 21st century technology doesn’t change that.


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Expanding that system will demonstrably not stop mass shootings.
You have no way of knowing this.
Well, the existing system isn’t stopping mass shootings. Isn’t that what you are complaining about? Making everyone use the same system that is already not stopping mass shooters is not going to change that when all but one or two of the mass shooters passed NICS anyway. Let’s say that Google comes out with a magical algorithm where NICS identifies prohibited persons with 100% accuracy even when states don’t report it and cops don’t charge domestic violence crimes. Las Vegas still happens. Mass shootings still happen in countries with much stricter firearms laws than the U.S. (Norway, Germany, France). So tell me again how I have no way of knowing this.

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So, we should do nothing?

I don't believe fixing a problem (and most will agree that there is a problem) is appeasement or compromise.
The first step of any solution is “Identify the problem.” The solution you are offering is going to fail because it has identified GUNS as the problem that needs to be solved.

In 2013, after Sandy Hook, Sen. Tom Coburn offered a bill that would have required background checks for every purchase but it also would have gutted much of the 1968-era record keeping requirements, allowed sales over state lines, etc. Every single person gets checked. Then Senate Majority Leader Reid, despite a promise that all bills would be heard, never let it get a floor vote.

The bill the Democrats did propose after Sandy Hook exempted CHLs from the background check; because they had already been checked. However, it still required them to transfer through an FFL and fill out a form 4473. In what way does that serve public safety?

The 1968 system is designed first and foremost to register firearms. It is a de-centralized registry in order to mitigate the threat to liberty; but advanced computing power is starting to remove even that thin layer of protection. The 1934 system is just straight-out “We’ll come and get it as soon as it is politically feasible” registration.

At the core, gun owners object to background checks because they don’t want the government knowing who owns what. They might be annoyed at the waste or ineffectiveness of NICS; but that isn’t what makes them call their Congressman by and large. At the same time, there are companies in Silicon Valley promising verified anonymous transactions with high levels of trust; but Congress is still stuck on trying to make this 1968 system work.

The solutions being regurgitated in this thread are just variations of trying to make a firearms registration system more modern. Firearms registration ends the same way whether modern or not. This is the 21st century. The person who can come up with background checks that don’t require registration and minimize recordkeeping will have no trouble building broad public support for it. Whether that person can get Congress to support it remains to be seen.
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Old February 21, 2018, 10:39 AM   #182
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This should be retained as a primer on this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Roberts
The first step of any solution is “Identify the problem.” The solution you are offering is going to fail because it has identified GUNS as the problem that needs to be solved.

In 2013, after Sandy Hook, Sen. Tom Coburn offered a bill that would have required background checks for every purchase but it also would have gutted much of the 1968-era record keeping requirements, allowed sales over state lines, etc. Every single person gets checked. Then Senate Majority Leader Reid, despite a promise that all bills would be heard, never let it get a floor vote.

The bill the Democrats did propose after Sandy Hook exempted CHLs from the background check; because they had already been checked. However, it still required them to transfer through an FFL and fill out a form 4473. In what way does that serve public safety?

The 1968 system is designed first and foremost to register firearms. It is a de-centralized registry in order to mitigate the threat to liberty; but advanced computing power is starting to remove even that thin layer of protection. The 1934 system is just straight-out “We’ll come and get it as soon as it is politically feasible” registration.

At the core, gun owners object to background checks because they don’t want the government knowing who owns what. They might be annoyed at the waste or ineffectiveness of NICS; but that isn’t what makes them call their Congressman by and large. At the same time, there are companies in Silicon Valley promising verified anonymous transactions with high levels of trust; but Congress is still stuck on trying to make this 1968 system work.

The solutions being regurgitated in this thread are just variations of trying to make a firearms registration system more modern. Firearms registration ends the same way whether modern or not. This is the 21st century. The person who can come up with background checks that don’t require registration and minimize recordkeeping will have no trouble building broad public support for it. Whether that person can get Congress to support it remains to be seen.
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Old February 21, 2018, 10:58 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
The 1934 system is just straight-out “We’ll come and get it as soon as it is politically feasible” registration.
Great post. I know the above is serious stuff but the way you said it sounded funny to me. I have to stop watching these police state movies
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Old February 21, 2018, 03:01 PM   #184
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The person who can come up with background checks that don’t require registration and minimize recordkeeping will have no trouble building broad public support for it. Whether that person can get Congress to support it remains to be seen.
Such a system is easy and simple to do, you just leave the gun out of the picture, and you check the person. Not the person and a gun, not the person and a specific gun, just the person.

There is no need, at all, for the government to know anything more than you are buying a gun. Trouble is, the pro gun side doesn't want to support it, because its gun control. And the anti gun side won't support it, because it doesn't have the ability to become a list of who owns what, which they believe they can, later on, use for confiscation. Without that, they won't support it, it doesn't go far enough to further their agenda.

Becoming a prohibited person is not something that goes back and forth, or happens overnight. Yes, I know that one becomes prohibited with the stroke of a pen/bang of a gavel, but everyone in the process knows this is going on, giving plenty of time to prepare to report the results.

Here's a thought, why not send the information to the state (which they already have, since it is state convictions (most often) that change your status), tell them they have it, legally, so they can use it, and have them put it on your driver's license (or other state issued ID).

Why not run that indepth background check you want on everyone applying for ID??? Driver's license, or other ID? You only need to run it once, and if they are prohibited, flag the ID. A no gun symbol, would be easy to see, if a bit obvious.

But any dealer (or their clerk) could just look at the license/ID and see right there, if the person is prohibited. No need to run a check every time you want to buy a gun (which is rather stupid, but that's another argument).

Yes, someone might use their pre-conviction ID to buy a gun, but that would be a CRIME, now wouldn't it. And if you're concerned that they might do that, the fix is simple, upon conviction of a disqualifying offense, the old ID is surrendered, and a new one issued, reflecting the change of legal status.

I'm sure there are holes in the idea, the devil is always in the details, but why is it that no one is talking about that kind of check system, at all???

It imposes NO additional burden of any kind on law abiding citizens, though it does require the government, especially the states to do something they aren't currently doing.

In theory, anyway. it seems likely the amount of errors that happen because one dept of the state is reporting to the Fed, might be less if the state is reporting to itself. Also allows for the state to adjust their system internally, if needed. (fewer players handling the ball, less chance for dropping it...)

I can see advantages to that kind of system, and few downsides, but no one is talking about it, or even giving it a passing mention. I know I can't be the only person who has thought of this idea, but all we get is some version of expanding what we've already got, or crickets chirping in the silence....

With those who claim their priority is public safety refusing to even discuss anything but their own pet systems it makes me wonder if their agenda is not what they publically claim it is...
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Old February 21, 2018, 03:21 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by BBarn
Some may believe that, but I wouldn't call it a general consensus. In fact, the idea that such a system will always work is flawed. The accuracy of an individual's personal records will always be questionable, and often out-of-date. And even if accurate, those records are not necessarily a reliable indicator of future actions on the part of an individual.

I'm not saying that the system should be scrapped. I am saying that, even with improvements (or "fixing"), it will never reach an acceptable level of effectiveness for those opposed to gun ownership.
It depends on whether you're referring to a consensus of the membership of this site, a consensus of only those participating in this particular discussion thread, or a consensus of the general population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster Online
Definition of consensus
1 a : general agreement : unanimity

the consensus of their opinion, based on reports … from the border —John Hersey

b : the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned

the consensus was to go ahead

2 : group solidarity in sentiment and belief
No system will ever satisfy the gun control advocates, because their end game is the elimination of firearms in private ownership. So forget about that -- not gonna happen. Once that's set aside, the fact that NO system devised, constructed, and implemented by humans can ever be 100 percent perfect is not reason to NOT correct obvious flaws in the system we have. Someone just sent me a tabulation of recent mass shooters who should have been flagged by the system -- but weren't. I remain of the opinion that unless and until we have done everything possible to correct pervasive (not isolated) failures in the existing system, there should be NO attempt to layer on additional complexity, with additional opportunities for the system to fail.

Or, as B. Roberts has suggested, scrap the existing system entirely and start with a clean slate.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; February 21, 2018 at 03:28 PM.
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Old February 21, 2018, 04:28 PM   #186
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After 8 pages of this, I've come to the conclusion that the two sides will never meet. November is going to be interesting. Oh well, time to buy more lowers and make out like a bandit.
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Old February 21, 2018, 04:35 PM   #187
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That has been my conclusion as well.

Call me a gun toting liberal. Two of my treasured guns were from another one (also a WWII vet)

Your thoughts echo mine, lets try something different. Open up research in gun deaths and what can solve it (thousands of gun suicides a year I would like to limit as well)

Nothing will solve all of it, but a shrug, arm teachers, really? And how many could kill someone else? They are teachers for a reason not Special Forces.

The other thread was all about no expense for schools spared, then it moves to malls and we have had a theater and a movie house.

My signature is a reflection that there are more involved in this than the 5% - most don't raise their head. Like a Union meeting, a few percent shout down the rest.

Yep, a lot of stupid stuff on the liberal side, but I always found talking to people was better than a Schism.
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Old February 21, 2018, 04:47 PM   #188
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Nothing will solve all of it, but a shrug, arm teachers, really? And how many could kill someone else? They are teachers for a reason not Special Forces.
It is a regrettably frequent feature of school shootings that staff are killed trying to stop the killer and protect the students. It takes no special training to manifest a protective reaction.

Criminals aren't supermen and it doesn't take Special Forces training to be a credible deterrent.
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Old February 21, 2018, 05:07 PM   #189
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Arming teachers is a throwaway phrase. It is like arming shoppers for mall shoppers.

The appropriate practice is to allow citizens to carry concealed weapons in most places unless there is a technical reason not to.

It behooves the carrier to be competent and have answered in their own mind - the question of whether they can use the gun with its potentially lethal outcome.

I've seen folks in intensive FOF decide that they cannot and abandon carry.

Some teachers are teachers to teach but that does not preclude self-defense. If you look at the vast number of folks who don't carry and overwhelmingly large percentage of licensed carriers who don't carry and/or don't even ever little bit - the statement about special forces applies to most.

I do know two real deal retired special forces professors though.
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Old February 21, 2018, 05:13 PM   #190
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By general consensus I meant the majority of the people on this site, but pro gun folks as a whole would likely feel the same... though that's just my opinion.

In no way do I believe that our current system will always work, it can not.
Even if it actually could or one were dreamed up that would, (though we all know that's not possible), our opposition would never accept it.

My point was that we need to begin by correcting the known factors that have prevented our current system from working as designed and intended.

A.B. got it, and he's much better at saying it than I am.
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Old February 21, 2018, 05:14 PM   #191
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I guess the high schoolers protesting in FL now have been told to do so by their (D) teachers. 20 students get shot and it seems like it is the end of the world.

Hippocrits thru and thru, teachers, media, and polioticians

Last edited by Al Norris; February 21, 2018 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Removed off-topic material
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Old February 21, 2018, 05:30 PM   #192
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Meanwhile, nothing gets done that helps to prevent this kind of carnage. Some say nothing can be done, so lets just accept the fact that innocent kids or church worshipers or people at work are going to get killed from time to time. That way they won't be incovenienced if they want to buy a gun. We all know our right to own any gun we want supercedes other peoples right to live.



I sure as hell don't mind submitting a few bucks and some time to pass a background check, if all gun transactions are required to do so. Mothers mourning the needless death of kids in school, just because some gun people don't want to give one more inch is disgusting. We are supposedly all in this together, but there seem to be a number of people that are willing to let selfish motives override doing anything to improve the current trend in mass shootings.



One more thing that galls me is the inability of legislators to provide necessary legislation AND funding to improve mental health care. The knee jerk reaction is always some platitide about goverment waste and already being over taxed.



2 months from now, this school massacre will be in the rear view mirror, and "out of sight, out of mind" will be back in play. This s truly sad.


This is exactly reflective of my views. Our current "background check" is a JOKE. There's a multitude of issues above and beyond guns that need to be addressed as well, but the current system that's passed off as a background check is pathetic.

Sitting and pointing fingers at the other side for an eternity will someday just lead to all out bans when the correct formulation of senators and representatives get in control, and we'll all be sitting here wondering how it happened.


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Old February 21, 2018, 05:32 PM   #193
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I guess the high schoolers protesting in FL now have been told to do so by their (D) teachers. 20 students get shot and it seems like it is the end of the world.
That is part of the conspiracy theory that's making the rounds, "kids couldn't react on a large scale so they must be coached by the commie under the bed".
I think you miss that these are modern times and these students have instant communication and an honest sense of outrage. They don't need any help for outside agitators to speak out or to organize.

And for seventeen families it is the end of the world.

Last edited by Al Norris; February 21, 2018 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Removed off-topic material that is now deleted.
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Old February 21, 2018, 05:45 PM   #194
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It's silly to think Moms Demand Action isn't prepared to jump on every school shooting. They aren't for "gun safety" or they'd join the NRA. I saw a video of a child wearing a red shirt with "Kids Demand Action" or something on it. They were ready to go within hours of the shooting.

The kids skipping classes right now are the same ones that skipped classes to protest the election result. The Left has fully embraced socialism and these events are hallmarks of the Left.

I was a member of two teacher unions and I will tell you, the last thing those two unions were interested in were teacher rights. Those groups were propaganda arms of the DNC. Any teachers here want to counter my assertion?

I just saw part of the DC event with Trump, teachers, and mourning parents. Trump did make a big point of why teachers should be armed and listed the same reasons the NRA and at least some members of this forum list.

I think most people simply never imagine being a victim so that the idea of being prepared to shoot the attacker first never enters their minds. Many forum members here don't believe it or they'd carry every day. People really think police will always get there in time.....they don't watch "Cops" shows, they don't do ride-alongs, they don't think about it. They have hoplophobia and really believe a person has to be wearing a uniform and badge to be able to operate a gun. That mentality is on display today.
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Old February 21, 2018, 07:03 PM   #195
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We had one citizen attempt to stop a murder.

He shot the guy with a shotgun, the guy turned towards him and he could not shoot him again.

Easy to say you can, but anyone that is going to shoot has to be as well trained as a Police officer.

Pilots squaked about needing guns on airplanes, they finally came up with a program.

One of the first ones pulled off a ND in the cockpit.

I have seen far too many people with guns at the range that are a danger.

There is this constant assumption that gun owning is responsible. Its not.

Having watched Moore waive his revolver around during one of his speeches, the thought were not kind ones.
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Old February 21, 2018, 07:25 PM   #196
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Arming teachers is a throwaway phrase. It is like arming shoppers for mall shoppers.

The appropriate practice is to allow citizens to carry concealed weapons in most places unless there is a technical reason not to.

It behooves the carrier to be competent and have answered in their own mind - the question of whether they can use the gun with its potentially lethal outcome.
That isn't what I've seen. A lot of CPL instructors can personally attest to the mass ignorance and lack of interest in effective use, that the public has when applying for a CPL.

And from my own personal experience, if you expect people to do the right thing you're going to be disappointed every time. People don't sit down and make a conscious decision about whether they should or shouldn't do something, they sit down and make conscious efforts to justify to themselves their doing what they desire.
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Old February 21, 2018, 07:54 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by RC20
One of the first ones pulled off an ND in the cockpit
That’s because FAA rules require threading a cable through the trigger guard of a loaded pistol. It is amazing there haven’t been more NDs with that ridiculous policy.

And for the record, research on guns isn’t closed. CDC funded this study in 2013. CDC is not allowed to use grants to advocate for gun control (or about 20 other different kinds of ethical conflicts in lobbying for that matter). Anti-gun people routinely characterize this as “blocking research on gun violence.”
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Old February 21, 2018, 10:18 PM   #198
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I think it is unlikely that there are many who could not muster the will to off somebody shooting a bunch of kids.
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Old February 21, 2018, 10:35 PM   #199
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A couple of links I stole from Matt Drudge:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...s-george-soros

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...201216104.html

In re: the second link -- if we're looking for a place to start, Google up "Broward County Solution." The gist is that the usual suspects in Broward County, FL, felt that students of color were being suspended and expelled in disproportionate numbers. So, in order to make the statistics look better, the aw-thaw-rih-tays decided to downgrade numerous offenses by said students of color, and to apply less severe penalties for the already-reduced charges. They declared it a success -- the numbers of students of color being expelled and suspended dropped like a rock in a vacuum.

How does this relate to the shooter? His last name is Cruz. He was automatically classified as a "person of color," irrespective of his genetics or whether his Latino-surnamed adoptive parents even spoke Spanish. In other words -- he skated, and his schoolmates paid the price.
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Old February 22, 2018, 01:11 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by RC20
Easy to say you can, but anyone that is going to shoot has to be as well trained as a Police officer.
What makes you think police officers are well-trained?
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