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Old September 16, 2010, 03:24 PM   #76
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I didn't "think" he was a threat. He was. He was very deliberately trying to run me into oncoming traffic, while looking at me and cussing. In fact, he tried it twice. There simply wasn't any question. It wasn't some idiot yaking on a cell phone and weaving across lanes.
I gotta ask, dont yer brakes work? In the situation you describe, a gun isnt even a solution. Good luck with that, remember this. Texas executes more people each year than any other state, do you want to chance it? Find another way out of the situation that doesnt involve shooting the guy, in my state showing the gun like you did is called brandishing and could land you in jail.
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Old September 16, 2010, 04:20 PM   #77
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Hmmmm.....either it was compliance or the story won't be told here. Lotta compliance goin on though.
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Old September 16, 2010, 04:49 PM   #78
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Wrong. In my original post I said "whlie keeping the pistol below the window so they couldn't see it yet", so no brandishing was involved.

And you and OldMarksman can argue it out about using the brakes vs his VIP maneuvers.
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Old September 16, 2010, 06:23 PM   #79
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In the situation you describe, a gun isnt even a solution.
Correct. If one were to fire it and hit the driver, it would only put the allegedly offending car out of control; the chance of hitting an innocent third party (who may also be driving an automobile) is completely unacceptable.

If one were to simply point it, the outcome is unpredictable. There are several possibilities:
  • The dudes are deterred and back off and disappear;
  • The passenger pulls and shoots; or
  • A cellphone call to 911 brings the gendarmes, who find the gun, compare it with the accusers' description, and start a criminal investigation that is likely to lead to prosecution.

I have difficulty imagining any defense of justification attempt more likely to fail. Take a traffic dispute and add a shooting by one driver at the occupants of another car; the defendant's only "evidence" that he believed he was in imminent danger is his word that he was thought the other driver was attempting to force him into oncoming traffic; the testimony of the people in the other car contradicts the testimony of the defendant; and the defendant puts together a story, subject to rigorous cross examination, that using the gun on a crowded roadway was somehow immediately necessary and that it somehow constituted a likely way out of his predicament. Not likely.

I would be somewhat surprised if the defendant even got a favorable jury instruction allowing the jurors to consider self defense.
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Old September 16, 2010, 06:42 PM   #80
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I have been an LEO for 32 years, Military, Local and federal. I cannot count the times I have pulled my gun on people. I have never had to shoot anyone, they all complied. I have shot several dogs that failed to comply. I guess that I can be very convincing when the chips are down and there is opportunity to convince someone they are about to make a very bad mistake.

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Old September 17, 2010, 12:13 AM   #81
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I arrested him for stealing the car he was driving and took his and his buddies asses to jail!
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Old September 17, 2010, 06:12 AM   #82
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Did I? Yep.

What happened? Bad guys turned into arrestees after eating pavement or dirt.

Have I ever pulled the trigger? Only, thank God, on the range and in the simulators, both FATS and live fire.

I have been told that the business end of a 1911 pistol looks like a BIG pipe. One guy must have had sharp eyes--he said he could SEE the nasty end of the 230 grain HydraShok in the barrel. He said he ALMOST crapped his pants.

Since he saved me the trouble of cleaning out the back seat of the patrol unit, I thanked him.
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Old September 17, 2010, 08:31 AM   #83
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I really don't want to help this thread get any more off-topic, but in an effort to quell this discussion of the traffic incident, please allow me to offer a little something.

The OP of the situation was driving beside someone who was being aggressive with the placement of their vehicle. The OP observed this as a threat to force him into oncoming traffic and got his gun ready without brandishing or shooting.

Here is what did NOT happen:
The cars didn't make contact; which clearly and difinitively states that the other driver's intent was not to force him into oncoming traffic, but to make his disapproval and frustration known through an implicit threat.
The OP did not have to apply directional force in order to prevent himself from hitting other vehicles. Thus, he did not have to defend himself by force, thus no application of force was justified.

Think of it as standing on the platform of a subway station with an approaching train. You are standing 5 feet from the edge of the platform and a large fellow approaches and stands right behind you and gets into a low-base stance. You interpret this as him possibly intending to push you onto the tracks as the train comes, so you turn to confront him. But he quickly turns and leaves. He didn't grab you or make any action of pushing you toward the tracks that had to be countered with force. He was just there and very suspicious.

I believe it to be the concensus here that pulling your firearm on this driver would have been a very bad idea. In situations such as these, you are already weilding a very powerful weapon that should be used to exhaustion before firing a gun from a moving vehicle. If this gentleman tried to force you into oncoming traffic though vehicular contact, you would want both hands on the steering wheel to help you force your way back to safety anyway.

Besides... hitting your brakes and taking a few seconds to get some distance would have definitely been the correct and most harmless solution to an escalating problem. When weilding a firearm, your intent is not to use it, but to eliminate the situation that has made its presence necessary. Sometimes using it is the only way to accomplish this; but a non-violent outcome is Always the top priority.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom.
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Old September 17, 2010, 08:43 PM   #84
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On the traffic incident.

What many are missing here is that TW7.62 likely isn't a "victim" but the aggressor. He admits to being a aggressive driver and admits that he might have done something to get the incident rolling. What's frightening is that he doesn't _remember_ what he had done to get things rolling. This tells me he isn't paying attention during driving. If I have a oops in traffic I know it, even if someone does not beep in protest.

But, all through this thread TW7.62 posts are stable,contain no swearing or other " yep, this guy is a yahoo" behavior so I'll at least give him some room.

If he did indeed start the confrontation, just take your lumps, get on with life and stop being a aggressive driver. Being a assertive driver is more effective, working traffic so the aggressive driver gets stuck behind a slow truck and you continue uninhibited. For the record, I get very few if any people honking at me.
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Old September 21, 2010, 10:13 AM   #85
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Was approached by a perp with a knife. I pulled, fired a warning shot, he ran like hell ! If he would have had a gun, I would have just shot him. No warning !
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Old September 21, 2010, 11:04 AM   #86
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Once got lost in an inner city situation, car broke down with family inside. Was being closed in on by 'gangsta' types with obvious bad intentions. I put window down slightly, waved gun at them, they turned and parted ways.
Another time two guys came into my deer camp with intentions of stealing a deer I had hanging. I opened my coat and showed my pistol. They turned and drove away.
Was followed at night in a very remote area in a National forest for hours. Finally, I pulled over, they stopped too. I stepped into their headlights, showed my pistol, they got in their car and drove away.
BTW, we talk about big calibers and such. Same pistol all three times. A Ruger stainless Super Single Six .22 LR.
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Old September 21, 2010, 02:07 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Epsterdog:
I've personally never given thought to pulling a gun on an unarmed person, nor do I think anyone should. Aren't we guilty of bringing a gun to a fist fight if we do?
This statement is ludicrous. Your contention that I have to fight a threat with equal force and no more will eventually get me, and anybody else who follows this logic, killed. If a BG is advancing toward me and I tell him to stop & he doesn't then I will pull my gun. I will again tell him to stop right there. If he doesn't then I will fire. My life is threatened by a BG who isn't stopping his advance.

You assume that we have to fight on the BG's terms. What if the BG is trained in martial arts or what if he is armed & we just don't know it yet...Oops. Someone is going to get hurt or die! I was in a car wreck 35 years ago. I don't have the ability to defend myself in a fight other than shooting someone who is advancing on me to do me harm and not stopping when instructed to do so...& that's exactly what I would do... shoot. Plus I do not have the ability to simply run away. My gun is my only defense. I have to rely on it to protect me and my family.
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Old October 20, 2010, 02:13 AM   #88
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i know this thread is a little old, but this is exactly what i was looking for...
i don't own a gun, and was never really interested in owning 1 until recent events, changed my mind about it.

i have a question, hopefully someone can help me with a decision.
i was leaving a shopping center, as i pull up to a stop sign a bum plows into the passenger rear of my car and proceeds to curse and blame me for him crashing his bike to my vehicle. i yelled to him that its his fault to watch where he is going, he turns around and tells me he's going to blow out my tires and pulls out a knife about 10" long. he takes a strike at my tires and pops it, i couldnt go anywhere and he was standing at my drivers side with the knife, my first reaction was to put up the window, which didnt work as fast as i thought... there where witnesses and i told the guy i was calling the cops so he hesitantly turned around and rode off.

my question, if i had a gun, would i have been in the right to extract it?

after i changed the tire, on the way home i kept thinking about it...maybe its not that bad of an idea... not the first time i see a situation where i might need more than the pen i was clinching!
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Old October 20, 2010, 02:41 AM   #89
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another situation i was curious about...

i'm at a fast food drive thru with my girlfriend, i have a clear view of the avenue infront of me. as i'm pulling out of the drive-thru i hear a loud screech and 1 car rear ends another, the guy in the back car (B), jumps out of his car and proceeds to yell at the guy in the front(A), whom also stepped out of his vehicle, calmed thou. (A) tells (B), that its his fault, (B) tells him to wait right there he's gonna show him who's fault it is, and goes to the trunk of the car and pulls out like a freaking saber sword... A hops back in his car and tries to pull away but gets caught in traffic, with the other guy running towards his car with the sword in his hands. (B) gets to the quarter panel of the car and hits the rear door area, in the comotion (B's) wife comes out and tries to go to (A's) passenger window.

so i tell my girl, see this is why its important to have a weapon, im my uneducated opinion i would have brandished my weapon aimed, to shoot. i would have told the guy to put the knife down and stay in his vehicle until the police arrive other wise i shoot!

what do you guys think? i have alot of friends with guns and have some family in law enforcement, i've spoken to them numerous times about it and been to the range and such... my main concered is like a couple of guys posted in this thread, is the risk of getting introuble for not knowing when to brandish a weapon worth getting 1 for safety's sake? i would never want to have to use it but with the way things are getting, people just become more and more wreckless.
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Old October 20, 2010, 02:40 PM   #90
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I would move away from that area.

Did you call 911 on the tire? take his license? running into the rear end of a car gets you a ticket here for following to close.....
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Old October 20, 2010, 09:09 PM   #91
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This was MANY years ago. I was on my way home from work, merging onto the highway, when the guy behind me decided that I shouldn't have merged in front of him and laid on the horn for an extremely long time. It was a big luxury car. He passed me on the right side and cut into the passing line in front of me. Only problem was, there was only about ten feet between me and the car in front of me and we were traveling about 60 mph. He cut in anyway and I slammed on the brakes sending my dog face first into the dash cutting his lip. The road turned from 2 to 3 lanes and eventually in the natural scheme of things I ended up in front of this guy again, and the traffic, getting closer to the city now, was stopping. So, I may or may not have stopped a bit faster than I had to, and that big luxury car skidded to a stop inches behind me.

My 428 Mach 1 had no AC and my window was down, and I was sitting still in traffic. all of a sudden I see this movement on the grassy median strip, which was extremely large, probably 75 yards across. There is this guy, side stepping up beside my car, out on the median in the grass about 30 feet away, with his 3 piece suit jacket open and his hand inside his jacket. He's coming looking for trouble, but being cautious about it. I didn't see a gun, but his posture and actions sure implied he was holding on to one. I'm thinking NOW he was probably trying to impress somebody in his car, but at the time I was thinking I'm going to get shot at.

There was nowhere for me to go as it was bumper to bumper stopped traffic. I had no LTC then, but fortunately, had been taking my lunch into the woods behind work and crow hunting, and in my back seat was a 12 Ga single shot 3 inch mag.. I reached between the seats and pulled it in front with me. It wasn't loaded, and I don't even know if I had any ammo. But I slid the barrel out the window aiming right at the guy, and I said "Draw."

The answer to your question.

He froze like a deer in the headlights.

The expression on his face changed from "I'm a tough guy" to "I'm SO screwed."

His complexion turned pale.

He started side stepping back toward his car very slowly

That was when I noticed the traffic had already pulled away, and I was 1/4 mile away from that scene 11 seconds later.

I'll never know which one of us was making the bigger bluff, but I know I never really felt any fear, it just all happened so fast, and I was young and stupid.
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Old October 20, 2010, 09:30 PM   #92
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The group of punks high-tailed it the other way. Should have bought a lottery ticket that day because there were 4 of them and I was with two women.

So you pulled your gun on someone what happened next???
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Old October 23, 2010, 08:52 AM   #93
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Two perps approached me and my son and brandished knives, with my left hand I grabbed my son and put him behind me, my right hand went to my Kahr .45. They stopped as soon as they saw the gun. They left and I called the police.... No one was hurt... Glad I had my CCL and my .45
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Old October 23, 2010, 09:24 AM   #94
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I dont carry a gun.....YET! However I always carry a knife or two on me. Their was a time where a bigger person than I (I am 6'2 and around 290lbs) pulled out a knife and told me he was going to kill me ( he must have been about 6'5). He pulls out a blade measuring about 3 1/2 inches. Wouldn't you know, this was the one time I didn't have a knife on me because I had just gotten out of school. He come up to me and I told him he better kill me, or he would be in a world of pain. He was shocked to see I wasnt backing down (I was bluffing of course and making an angry face, etc). He stopped with the knife point at my belly.....what happened next to this day amazes me. I took my right hand which was balled up and quickly cold cocked him as hard as I could. He dropped to the ground. I stomped his hand until the knife was free from his grasp. My friends came outside and saw what was going on. A neighbor called 911 and I took the knife and put it to his neck and told him if he moved I would f'n kill him (a bluff again). Cops took him in, but he got off after a day at court. He was released, the stupid judge came to the conclusion that he was just "playing around".....what is this world coming to?
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Old October 23, 2010, 10:30 AM   #95
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I didn't have a gun at the time but this happened last Christmas. I was driving on a two lane road and was in alittle bit of a hurry. The sun was still up too so I could see. Going about 60 in a 55. Most people do anyway. I pass some cars going really slow before coming up to a black truck or SUV. Can't remember what exactly. I get the gut feeling he is about to be a big dick about it. I drive an Audi with some fair get up and go. So as I go to pass him. He swerves and run me off the road. My car started sliding in the gravel but as I gained control, sped off. Well. He kept up with me untill his truck maxed out. I kept going untill I realized just how fast I really was going and slowed down. Well. I continued to drive normal untill I noticed this black vehicle hauling ass and swerving in and out of traffic to catch up. He ends up creeping by and cuts within a few feet in front of my bumper. I change lanes. So does he. To lose him I had to wait untill an off ramp came up and swerve so late that he would have flipped his vehicle if he followed. I did not feel safe to stop somewhere. Much less knew where the closest police station was. Plus I had no gun, knife or anything. Now I am packing a knife most of the time and carry a .45 in my car only. Untill I get my CHL. I will also mount a camera between the front seats. I take my car to the local race track and if it ever happens again. I will be well prepared. What do you guys think of this whole ordeal?
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Old October 23, 2010, 10:58 AM   #96
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Spindrift..............11 second mach 1???? Hmm..............

I find all these stories very educational and am thankfull for everyones input.
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Old October 23, 2010, 01:07 PM   #97
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This story takes place before I turned 21 and started to carry and I will be leaving a few details out since they are nobody else's business except for mine and the other parties involved.

When I was about 19 I was hanging out with a few friends and one of their younger sisters had some friends over as well. One of them was a bit of a trouble maker sometimes and I knew it because I was acquanted to him and his family. On this particular evening a friend of mine did something to egg him on, just jokingly and in a friendly nature mind you, and this individual decided to take it too far and get aggressive. He started grabbing at my friend and ended up with him in a playground choke. My friend didn't fight back (he later admitted thinking he would be let go and thought the other guy was playing around) and when he started to turn pink there was some shouting going on with everybody telling him to let go but he wouldn't and seemed to have everybody tuned out. I ended up putting him in a choke hold I learned in a judo class to get him off and he ended up freaking out and scratching the heck out of my arms with his fingernails and I let him go when he let go of my friend. When I let him go he started screaming and ended up grabbing a kitchen knife from the counter (this all took place in a kitchen at a friends home). I had to very calmly talk him down from this point and in the end he finally calmed and put the knife down after a few minutes. I made an agreement with him that if he calmed down and forgot about everything I wouldn't have a talk with his parents about the issue.

Anyway, for privacy's sake that's all of the story i'll give. He's a good kid at heart and i'm glad I never told his parents. He had a few troubles in his life but he's never hurt anybody and has really straightened out since then. Even though things worked out in the end, I made the decision to start carrying when I was of age largely because of this. You never know who's going to fly off the handle and when. That night I also learned a lot about the value of staying cool and talking things down when possible. I encourage everybody here to take up a martial art such as judo if possible because it can really help you learn how to think and act under pressure through sparring (randori).
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Old October 24, 2010, 12:10 AM   #98
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Thanks Goodwrench

Thanks for the chuckle Mr. Goodwrench!

I've become a pretty docile driver these last few years after getting my CCW and being a devoted carrier.

To the OP, I've never had to draw, but on two occassions last few years I've sensed a potential close threat so I've cleared the cover garment and rested my hand on the butt of my weapon. Both cases the person broke eye contact, changed facial expression to fear from aggression and abruptly crossed the street or changed direction. Both cases while walking downtown after dark from club to hotel with my wife as we were enjoying our birthday's (which are only a few days apart) or aniversary.

More and more, I don't even feel the urge to be away from the house much after 9:00 PM. 48 years old, big screen HDTV and Netflix membership have lots to do with that!
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Old October 24, 2010, 02:31 AM   #99
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I will spare the details but the guy let the girl go, he shut the apartment door and I called the cops. Man spent the night in jail, girl went home.
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