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Old October 6, 2008, 09:57 AM   #101
.22lr
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Ideally!

please, the UAV thing was the IDEAL in a IDEAL world. I also siad that, in this ideal world, the public wouldn't mind the extra taxes and the bad guys would phone their attentions in ahead of time. Think utopian, happy bunny, ideally.

My Main thrust was that the cops didn't have vital information but they raced to the scene anyways. Their heroics are astounding.

My second thrust was that I thought that the availability of rifles is probably a good thing, but they should be in a intermediate cartridge, not the biggest most punishing revolver or bolt action available.

The cops did great against cruddy odds. They all deserve medals.

As for the advanced communications and better awareness of what was going on, we just aren't there yet.
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Old October 6, 2008, 12:57 PM   #102
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That was great, Glenn.

What Glenn said! Well, that and slugs.
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Old January 16, 2009, 12:47 AM   #103
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What about grenades or 40 mm grenade launchers? Why dont big city agencies have something explosive just for these types of situations? The six pack with 6 40mm grenade launchers would be perfect.
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Old January 16, 2009, 02:26 AM   #104
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What about grenades or 40 mm grenade launchers? Why dont big city agencies have something explosive just for these types of situations? The six pack with 6 40mm grenade launchers would be perfect.
And 64's for those times when that crazy guy steals a tank from the military and starts rampaging through town....
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Old January 18, 2009, 01:29 AM   #105
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I think many law enforcement agencies have resisted taking on larger sized weapons out of fear of looking like the military. It makes sense to me for every officer to have something extra on-hand to even the odds such as an automatic rifle or sub-machine gun. I think such large city departments should have something even a little heavier like a 40 mm launcher or even a helicopter armed with a light machine gun.
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Old January 18, 2009, 02:35 AM   #106
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the biggest problem is the fact that the officers were poor shots and trained to resist the urge to put one between the eyes. they had weapons deigned for close range. IMO every patrol car should have a shotgun and an AR15 with an officer capable of using them efficiently. 1 head shot each would have taken both perps down with an immediate end to the threat.
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:19 AM   #107
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Grenade launchers? How would that have helped in the North Hollywood shootout? Heliocopters - same question?

There were people in the bank in back of the two shooters - want to send a grenade their way?

The vast majority of extreme incidents that generated the uproar can be handled by rifles which are now becoming standard issue for many departments.
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Old January 21, 2009, 03:14 AM   #108
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Haha, the internet is hilarious. Some suggestions here suggest there are many 1337 D3ltA [email protected]'S present in this thread. Lets take thing back to reality just a bit.

You're an average beat cop, you get called to a scene, and shortly after arriving you are confronted by two heavily armed men with machineguns, AP rounds, and a scary cool, calm demeanor to use them. Come on now. The average officer has likely never been in a situation like that. Can you imagine the fear, disorientation, and shock? Come on people, give me a break. I'm sure to all the officers involved, those 44 minutes (or however long it really was) weren't 44 minutes of bank robbery but 44 minutes of WAR. Most people (the average person) have a tough time hitting the target at 50-100yds with a handgun, let alone making a headshot. Couple that with your target being heavily armored and firing back hundreds of AP rounds, thoroughly disintegrating everything you could possibly take cover behind. It is a miracle no one died except the robbers themselves.

Big bore revolvers, grenade launchers (I'm sure that was a joke though, right?), and UAV's. lol You all make me laugh.
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Old January 21, 2009, 04:49 AM   #109
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What about grenades or 40 mm grenade launchers? Why dont big city agencies have something explosive just for these types of situations? The six pack with 6 40mm grenade launchers would be perfect.
Police have tried using explosives in other situations before and it hasn't turned out so well. Read this article about the 1985 MOVE standoff for one example of stupidity in Government.

The N.Hollywood shootout was an incident that exploited a weakness in American law enforcement. Almost no agency drills for encountering multiple suspects armed with Class-III ordnance. The outcome could have been far worse has these two been part of a 5-6 man group of professionals with a good plan.
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Old January 21, 2009, 06:00 AM   #110
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The N.Hollywood shootout was an incident that exploited a weakness in American law enforcement. Almost no agency drills for encountering multiple suspects armed with Class-III ordnance. The outcome could have been far worse has these two been part of a 5-6 man group of professionals with a good plan.
I'd say that the biggest issue wasn't the weapons that the robbers had nor the fact that there were more than one robber. The biggest problem for the police was the fact that they were wearing heavy body armor.

Even though there were two of them armed with Class IIIs, they were still hit multiple times. Had they not been armored up things would have ended very differently and much more rapidly.

I do agree that the robbers had a miserable plan. I think that once the shooting started they were having too much fun shooting to think about a long term solution.
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Old January 21, 2009, 06:53 AM   #111
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I agree with Erik. If the officers were not issued rifle caliber carbines, they should have been authorized to carry slugs for their shotguns. In my mind, buckshot (at least to law enforcement) is next to useless. While slugs may not have penetrated the BG's body armor, blunt trauma is a [email protected]*ch and multiple slug hits may have put them down where they could have been finished off.

I'm lucky in that our agency has authorized slugs for years but few people carry them. Most cops look at the shotgun as an inconvienence and the state of shotgun training at most agencies seems to be "fire your five or ten rounds a year and forget it" I carry a couple rounds of buckshot in my extra ammo but the ready rounds and the majority of my spare ammo is slugs.

We recently authorized patrol rifles but my shotgun still has slugs in it. I figure if it's bad enough for it to come into play, I want a round with some authority

Also, most cops underestimate the penetration power of rifle caliber rounds since most have little to no experience with anything outside handguns and shotguns. Granted, you use what you have for cover/concealment but don't confuse the two and always be looking for something better. Better education for cops is necessary so they understand the capabilities of the rifles they may be facing

I also think personal trauma kits (small ones for individual use) should be considered. Tacpack (I think thats the company's name) makes small sealed trauma packs designed to deal with gunshot wounds. Provide them to officers and TRAIN them with them.
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Old January 21, 2009, 07:20 AM   #112
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I agree with Erik. If the officers were not issued rifle caliber carbines, they should have been authorized to carry slugs for their shotguns.
Well, and this sort of incident is the type where these matters of policy change. When was the last time where LAPD officers truly needed slugs or carbine because they were in a longer range heavy fire engagment?


Quote:
I'm lucky in that our agency has authorized slugs for years but few people carry them.
So had your department responded, assuming it is comparable to LAPD, it would likely not have been much better off because the officer themselves likely would not be able to respond with slugs either because they made the conscious choice not to carry them. Wonderful.

Quote:
I also think personal trauma kits (small ones for individual use) should be considered. Tacpack (I think thats the company's name) makes small sealed trauma packs designed to deal with gunshot wounds. Provide them to officers and TRAIN them with them.
While I like the idea, a buddy of mine on Dallas PD brought up a good point. He said they were going to have to start hiring recruits that weighed at least 400 lbs. Anybody smaller doesn't have a waist large enough on which to carry all the gear they are expected to carry on their physical person. You can only put so much on the belt and then only so much on the suspenders/braces (which tend to not be as good as the belt for mounting gear).

Let's see, pistol, spare mags, cuffs (maybe 2 pair) gloves, light, baton, pepper spray, keys, radio, taser (for some), knife, spare shotgun or spare carbine ammo, phone, and now a medical kit.

New gear? So for a department the size of LAPD, how much is it going to cost to issue med kits to each officer? How much will training cost? Note that training costs include not just the cost of training, but the cost of covering all the shifts of those officers who should be on duty but are in training.

Of course, you can't even get officers in your own department to be serious about training with shotguns and carrying slugs. From what you have said, the med kits will likely be seen as just another inconvenience - more unnecessary training your fellow officers will just go through the motions completing because they have to, not because they believe in the effectiveness of the product.

Of course, since so few officers are shot, shouldn't they carry more generalized medical kits to treat more common injuries as well? Such kits will be even larger.
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Old January 21, 2009, 02:00 PM   #113
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There are several gear solutions aimed at first responders to help alleviate the real-estate issue:

Throw-over plate carriers, chest rigs, tactical vests, detachable sub-loads, patrol bandoleers, a variety of throw-and-go bags. What with most everything being modular these days,there is something for nearly everyone. The patrol bandoleers, detachable sub-loads, and bags are low profile, quick to don, and don't require a trip to the trunk like the larger options may in a two officer car.
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Old January 21, 2009, 04:48 PM   #114
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Truth is, LA had the solution, and they didn't get there quick enough. SWAT. .308 would have done the job, or .223 properly placed.

Deployment was, and is the main problem with police: they just don't get there fast enough...
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Old January 21, 2009, 06:23 PM   #115
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Truth is, LA had the solution, and they didn't get there quick enough. SWAT. .308 would have done the job, or .223 properly placed.

Deployment was, and is the main problem with police: they just don't get there fast enough...
Pretty sure SWAT got there in time to end it. But that doesn't make them the "solution."

This was a bank robbery that went bad because the badguys were well armed, under the influence of narcotics, and had their minds made up that they would not be taken.

SWAT teams don't generally respond to bank robberies...and they certainly aren't quick-reaction units. Even if you could break free the manpower, they have to drive to the scene (in traffic, etc), etc, etc, etc. Or you could have a SWAT team on standby in every district...not feasible or likely.

Guess who IS on scene though? Patrol officers. That's why THEY are the solution and the resources should be given to them to handle it. (No, not 40mm HE or helicopters with door-gunners...) ".223 properly placed" can come from them.
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Old January 21, 2009, 09:37 PM   #116
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The main problem with ANY police department always is and always has been the ignorant scumbags who are appointed by the politicians to lead the departments. The higher command people are generally anti-gun, anti-police and anti-intelligent. Cops who have worked the field for many years are completely ignored by higher-ups. For years L.A.P.D. officers have repeatedly asked to be allowed to have scoped rifles available to use in case of emergencies like the North Hollywood Shootout. Time and again the higher command people kept saying, "NO!!" to the field officers. Once again the veteran field officers were proven right and the higher command people have egg on their faces, down their shirts and dripping off of their laps. Right after the North Hollywood Shootout rifles were issued to a number of patrol officers "to use in case of emergencies." Pistol types and calibers were also changed to the advantage of the field officers.
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Old January 22, 2009, 04:58 PM   #117
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[QUOTEDouble Naught Spy]Well, and this sort of incident is the type where these matters of policy change. When was the last time where LAPD officers truly needed slugs or carbine because they were in a longer range heavy fire engagment?[/QUOTE]

There have been multiple times when LAPD has needed and/or used slugs in their shotguns. Just as one example, remember the infamous SLA shootout?
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Old January 22, 2009, 06:40 PM   #118
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To be honest, the Rodney King riots had both police and fire pulling out, and giving up. They left a large part of LA to fend for themselves, setting up containment boundaries.

Part of the reason for this might well have been the real fact they are out gunned by the mobs, and out manned.
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Old January 22, 2009, 09:05 PM   #119
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There have been multiple times when LAPD has needed and/or used slugs in their shotguns. Just as one example, remember the infamous SLA shootout?
Yes I do. That was 1974, more than two decades before the North Hollywood incident. I appreciate you taking the bait and replying because it helps make the point. That is, LAPD higher-ups have trouble seeing the need for such policy decisions when such incidents are interspersed with large gaps in time and are incidents that truly draw attention to LAPD that reflect a real need for change...which is sort of what Rifleman 173 touches upon in his comment three posts up.

Many departments really need to be jump-started into action. Nevermind SLA, Waco, North Hollywood, etc., here in North Texas, it took our own full auto bank robbery incident and shootout with cops to get the OK for carbines in Dallas and some other north Texas departments.
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Old January 24, 2009, 11:41 AM   #120
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What pistol rounds are going to pierce Level III or IV body armor at 50, 100, or 125 yards? Inquiring minds want to know.
Deagle?
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Old January 24, 2009, 12:24 PM   #121
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Going back to the comment on SWAT teams, my personal experience has been that unless an agency has a full time SWAT team (and only one agency in my County does), it will take upwards of 30 minutes to an hour to get the guys together, gearded up, briefed and to the scene. Sure, when they get there, they TKOB but in the meantime people are getting killed. Most teams are part time and the officers assigned to them have other duties. So, when called out they have to respond from where ever they are.

The "active shooter" concept that started after Columbine recognized the fact that waiting for SWAT to arrive in active shooter situations gets people killed. Give the line officers the means to end a bad situation quickly if the situation arises.

Most of us agree that the solution is providing rifle caliber carbines and proper training to street officers. Some administrators on the other hand, are slow to act on this. It took me close to 8 years to get the administration of my agency to authorize them. They (the PD) still will not provide them but does authorize officers to carry personally owned rifles which is better then nothing.

In my 18+ years as an LEO, I've learned that most agency adminstrators are reactive in their outlook no matter how much they may profess to otherwise. I've seen how fast an administration can draft and approve a general order or policy if they see fit and the chief believes it is important (these usually involve something you Will NOT do). It's a different matter when attempting to get gear for the guys and girls and the street.

Someone usually has to get hurt to make a change. It took one of our officers getting killed to begin correcting serious radio problems our patrol officers had been compaining about for years and to get our K-9 unit fully manned.
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Old January 24, 2009, 03:50 PM   #122
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The police here in our small town had a shootout with a bank robber about six years ago. He had an AR-15, the cops had Glocks. The citizens pitched in and bought M&Ps for every patrol car. Every officer now has one with EOTech 550 sights. Every cop in the USA should have one IMO.
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Old January 24, 2009, 05:48 PM   #123
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MPs - do you mean TNG? M&Ps are the new SW handgun. And MPs are HK SMGs and in pistol calibers wouldn't be that useful against the dreaded body armor boys?

So, is that it? I love asking gun geek questions.
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Old January 24, 2009, 06:46 PM   #124
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Its fairly easy to see why the North Hollywood and Miami shootout went as it did. The officers or agents simply were not as trained or motivated as their attackers. It wasnt about equipment or pistol caliber, but motivation and training.

There have been many incidents where one or two motivated individuals were able to take down huge groups of men. You can easily look them up by typing the words "Medal of Honor" into google. There have been several well documented stories where a few men with little equipment have taken down over 100 well organized and equipped soldiers.

What is truly needed is not SWAT teams, but better trained and motivated officers. The reason why police pulled out during the Rodney King riots was because they were not trained or motivated to deal with the situation. Why would you risk your life for the city of Los Angeles?

This is the greatest case for civilians carrying concealed weapons. To a certain extent, you can trust the police. However, how do you know the officers patrolling your neighborhood are not really disgruntled employees who hate their managers and not willing to risk their lives to get to you?
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Old January 24, 2009, 07:05 PM   #125
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Its fairly easy to see why the North Hollywood and Miami shootout went as it did. The officers or agents simply were not as trained or motivated as their attackers. It wasnt about equipment or pistol caliber, but motivation and training.
You are kidding, right? Two guys with rifle-rated body armor and full auto rifles with AP ammo against cops with predominately handguns in a fight that took place mostly at distances beyond 75 yards and you think it was due to motivation and training?

Have you seen the video? Just what sorts of great training do you think the bad guys had?

Quote:
This is the greatest case for civilians carrying concealed weapons.
This surely isn't right if the reasoning is that civilians are to be considered so well trained or better so than the cops. Few gun owners have much in the way of defensive training and very few actually practice it.
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