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Old August 31, 2008, 04:25 PM   #26
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Quote:
Post hoc information is great...What could the police have done differently to end the situation much quicker? The gunmen were able to keep the police at bay for a long time. What do you think could have been done differently, and what have officers learned since the incident?
Congratulations, Sherlock. You figured out what this thread is.
I have the DVD of that, somewhere, but, haven't watched it for awhile. Thanks for the refresher. Did NOT remember the vests being Level III, but, Isn't that about the limit for practical vests?

What they can learn is that on super rare situations, shots from 50-100 yards, at very small MOVING targets may need to happen.

Second: if the target is moving, it maybe neccessary to have a rifle, or pistol, capable of piercing Level III armour, at 50-100 yards.

Or, to put it another way,
"The reason for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped in the first place."

And, don't forget,
"Never bring a pistol to a rifle/machine gun fight."
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Old August 31, 2008, 06:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Bill said "The situation didn't unfold the way most cops would expect."

You win the Big Bingo pot of the night for that one, brother. One of the real lessons in this gunfight, and in other historic high profile police gunfights. Luck of the draw exists, never be happy with a minimum standard, have some plan for the unexpected.

I keep dusting off this old saying from Clint Smith, even though he is a Marine, got to give him a tip of the hat for this one.

"the fight is never what you THINK it will be. It is gonna be what it's gonna be, the only variable is what YOU are going to do."


By the way nice to read your words again.

Good Luck & Be Safe
i think thats sig material...
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Old August 31, 2008, 07:52 PM   #28
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I have the DVD of that, somewhere, but, haven't watched it for awhile. Thanks for the refresher. Did NOT remember the vests being Level III, but, Isn't that about the limit for practical vests?
Dr. Watson,
Nope, Level IV which is now as light as III was then, some is lighter. Besides, you said your Mosin Nagant would do the job with ball ammo through Class III (Level III) and that isn't the case.

Quote:
What they can learn is that on super rare situations, shots from 50-100 yards, at very small MOVING targets may need to happen.
Most of the officers actually shot from more than 125 yards. The issue of moving targets has always been a concern. Most of the officers wounded were wounded inside of 75 yards during the earlier stages of the fight. Hence the secondary ring of officers at about 125 yards on the far side of the intersection from the robbers.

Quote:
Second: if the target is moving, it maybe neccessary to have a rifle, or pistol, capable of piercing Level III armour, at 50-100 yards.
Why stop at Level III? Do an online search for Level IV armor that will stop 30.06 AP rounds. Hence the notation above of the .50 BMG.

What pistol rounds are going to pierce Level III or IV body armor at 50, 100, or 125 yards? Inquiring minds want to know.

Quote:
Or, to put it another way,
"The reason for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped in the first place."
Mindless mantra - great. How do you fight your way back to that which you didn't ever have?

Quote:
And, don't forget,
"Never bring a pistol to a rifle/machine gun fight."
Great, more mindless mantra. The cops didn't really have a choice in deciding if they wanted to show up or not.
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Old August 31, 2008, 10:05 PM   #29
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Here is a 2 minute 30 second clip from the LAPD police radio as it was going down. The site has a lot of cool scanner links and stuff. I think that the patrol rifle in LAPD cruisers was a result of the North Hollywood shootings.
I am not sure if only supervisors carry the rifles or not though.


http://www.police-scanner.info/audio..._hollywood.htm
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Old August 31, 2008, 10:37 PM   #30
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Why stop at Level III? Do an online search for Level IV armor that will stop 30.06 AP rounds. Hence the notation above of the .50 BMG.
That's why you hit them a couple of times or go with a gutshot where the plates don't cover. Though if you have 2+ officers shooting at a suspect with 30-06s, those plates won't past long. Plus the blunt force trauma will still hurt them to a degree.

Training in rapid follow up shots would be needed. It would be a PITA to get the 50 into position.
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Old September 1, 2008, 10:13 AM   #31
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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm
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Dr. Watson,
Nope, Level IV which is now as light as III was then, some is lighter. Besides, you said your Mosin Nagant would do the job with ball ammo through Class III (Level III) and that isn't the case.
Thank you Mr. Holmes;-) But, it appears from the test posted above, the
.223 and 7.62 x 39 blow through IIIA. I suspect 182 grain ball, at 2600 fps would do the job. Also, a box of armour piercing would do for any body armour.
Quote:
What pistol rounds are going to pierce Level III or IV body armor at 50, 100, or 125 yards? Inquiring minds want to know.
Pistol rounds likely to do the job would not be PC. .475 Linebaugh, heavy 454, using monometal bullets.http://www.handloads.com/misc/lineba...tion.tests.asp



Notice Keith bullets, do well. Heavy hard cast. Punch bullets
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm
are monometal, with a lead core added, since the government
classifys solid hard monometal bullets, like Barnes solids, as armour piercing, and, generally illegal.

I see no reason police aren't allowed to carry M1A's in the car, with armour piercing ammo. Milsurp should do the trick. At 300 yards, I had one go through the thick part of a manhole cover, and, stick nearly it's full length out the back of the manhole cover.

It's a lot easier to give police guns that give them a chance against Mexican gangbangers, then try and stop the gangbangers from getting the guns...

Also, the CZ 52 used a .30 caliber or so bullet, that went real fast, and, easily defeated most body armour. 7.62 Tokarev bottle-necked cartridge


Another good test of vests and bullets:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_3.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot24.htm
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Old September 1, 2008, 11:40 AM   #32
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Have we prepared? My Department is.

We have two Casinos, and to address this problem, we carry AR15's for patrol rifles. I also have with me on patrol a .308 rifle (Savage 10FP-LE2A), loaded with issued 168 gr. GM Match, topped with the Burris 6-24x50 XTR.

At the Department, we also have two iron-sighted .338 Magnums. These are primarily for Fish and Game, but can be pressed into service if needed.

And, have I trained? Without going into all the details, I'll simply say yes--both LE and military.
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Old September 1, 2008, 12:25 PM   #33
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Thank you Mr. Holmes;-) But, it appears from the test posted above, the .223 and 7.62 x 39 blow through IIIA. I suspect 182 grain ball, at 2600 fps would do the job. Also, a box of armour piercing would do for any body armour.
Soccrates, the North Hollywood bank robbers had added steel plates to their homemade armor, capable enough to stop .223 rounds. The vests were not just IIIa, but III. You started off by noting they were III, now you are saying IIIa. You realize that IIIa is the highest level of soft armor and III is the next higher level and involves hard armor, right?

And NO, a box of armor piercing ammo will not do it for any body armor. Level IV is specifically made to defeat AP ammo, up to 30.06 AP. That means your M1A in .308, even with AP ammo isn't going through Level IV.

Your beloved Linbaugh would not penetrate III or IV, even if you actually have started loading your cases with slugs, LOL.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/DYING+...39;-a083864135

Quote:
That's why you hit them a couple of times or go with a gutshot where the plates don't cover. Though if you have 2+ officers shooting at a suspect with 30-06s, those plates won't past long. Plus the blunt force trauma will still hurt them to a degree.
...which is why US Soldiers are being targeted with head shots as their hard armor is stopping COC shots just fine, even from close range.

Here is a great example of Level IV armor at work...

http://passtheammo.com/2005/07/soldi...rvives-sniper/

And the sniper was using AP rounds according to the medic in his letter to Point Blank...
http://www.pointblankarmor.com/news.asp
Quote:
WATCH INCREDIBLE VIDEO OF U.S. ARMY SOLDIER (PFC. TSCHIDERER) SURVIVING A HIT FROM A SNIPER'S BULLET

The following is a letter of appreciation from PFC Stephen "Doc" Tschiderer, U.S. Army

Dear Point Blank,

First let me say thank you for saving my life!! I am forever grateful!!!! My name is PFC Stephen Tschiderer, and I am currently deployed to Bagdhad, Iraq. Yesterday, July 2, 2005, I was on patrol and while proving security around my Humvee, I was shot by a sniper. This sniper was useing a Draganov sniper rifle with AP rounds. The round struck me at an angle and did not come through the SAPI plate. Enclosed are some pics of the plate and what the round did to me, which thanks to you guys is only a small mark. My family and everyone that knows me sends our thanks and keep up the GREAT work.

THANK YOU AGAIN!!!
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Old September 1, 2008, 04:12 PM   #34
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North Hollywood

My agency allows any Deputy with an issued vehicle or is a member of the Tatical teams to go through the AR 15 course and carry either an AR 15 or Ruger Mini 14. I would like to see more long guns added to the list. Why shouldn't a SKS or Marlin lever action be allowed? Any rifle caliber would have penetrated the ballistic protection the bad guys wore.
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Old September 1, 2008, 06:43 PM   #35
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OOS:

I'm not real willing to take your word on 400-525 grain monometal bullets not being armour piercing. If the government made them pretty much illegal, or tried, they probably have a pretty good reason. This may sound a bit strange, but velocity can be the enemy of penetration...

That said, thanks for the tutorial on vests.

Just curious what level armour in the groin, and legs?

the lessons learned are first, bring a rifle:
Second shoot it well.
Third a box of AP ammo might be a good idea...

For police, perhaps we better go back to handguns with better penetration, and, non hollow point ammo, or, at least have a clip with ball ammo in it...

If you are in an area that it's likely you are going to face an armoured bank robber, consider a rifle that shoots heavier bullets, like a 9.3 X 62, 375 H&H, or 458 Lott, and, use solids...
I was just thinking if a 375 H&H wouldn't be ideal, with monometal solids...
Or, I guess my 475 Ackley might penetrate that Class IV or V armour, 600 grains at 2200 fps?

"Why does the bad guy have a giant hole in both sides, and, through 3 vests, with plating?"
"Your honor, I was on the way to the range, and, I just happened to have my .475 Ackley in the trunk."

Last edited by Socrates; September 1, 2008 at 09:48 PM.
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Old September 2, 2008, 12:19 AM   #36
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If you are in an area that it's likely you are going to face an armoured bank robber, consider a rifle that shoots heavier bullets, like a 9.3 X 62, 375 H&H, or 458 Lott, and, use solids...
It's unlikely any police department would ever be allowed to use a heavy African game rifle in an urban area. The liability risk for collateral damage is just too high.

Face it, while it might not be as ballsy-macho as some huge caliber African game round or voodoo-ish sniper round (e.g. 408 Cheytac), the .308 M1A NM with a good scope will do the job. A pair of magazines loaded with AP rounds for "special purpose" use would likely be enough. If body hits aren't working, you go for the head or the pelvis and/or legs. If unable to do that, target the weapon he's using.

I will note that trying to make even a 125 yard shot on a moving target hosing down the area with his own .308 makes a head shot... challenging to say the least.

And, since it's the police, they can obtain ammo that's verbotten to the masses, such as solid brass or tungsten cored ammo.
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Old September 2, 2008, 12:32 AM   #37
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Bill:
007 nixed the 308 M1A with armour piercing, since it's supposed to not work on Level VI, or V vests..

None of the vests are designed to handle bullets with twice the kenetic energy of the 30-06. The 9.3 isn't really an African rifle, it's a Europe/world rifle. The 286 grain bullets, monometal solids, like barnes, at 2400-2500 fps penetrate like crazy, about twice, or three times the depth of the 30-06, or other .308 about caliber AP rounds...Powderman says they have .338's laying around. That's close.

Heck, the 9.3 recoils so little even a police officer might hit his target, with open sites, at 125 yards...

And Bill, at least read a little of the thread...
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Old September 2, 2008, 01:31 PM   #38
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Uh, you might as well be advocating phasers.

The US LEO market is a 5.56 and 7.62 market, with the 7.62 segment of that market almost exclusively contained within tactical units.

And THAT is deemed very controversial in many parts of the country. Hell, its controversial to many posters HERE.

Readily available slugs and/or M4s would have ended things nicely, much sooner.
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Old September 2, 2008, 04:08 PM   #39
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I worked that area and retired just before the shooting happened. I knew some of the players.

The pistol on the street was either the S & W or Beretta in 9MM. A few 38 S & W revolvers were there. Some patrol officers had shotguns with OO Buck. Some Swat teams arrived late and had AR-15s.

The street cops were trained to take head shots when they thought body armor was present. The drill at the range was to double tap the center mass and put the third shot in the head. I would venture to say many took the head shot but missed. It might be hard to make the head shot with the pistol when someone is spraying you with and automatic weapon.

The next trip I took to Calif. I saw a motor officer with an AR mounted on his bike. I'm sure there are a lot more in the cars these days.

If any of you are ever in L A for a visit, go to the old Highland Park Station where the LAPD Museum is located. They display the suits the bad guys were wearing on dummies with all the holes. I think there are around 30 holes in each suit. A head shot would have taken them out.
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Old September 3, 2008, 02:53 AM   #40
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Quote:
Bill:
007 nixed the 308 M1A with armour piercing, since it's supposed to not work on Level VI, or V vests..
I saw that before I posted, thank you.

Quote:
And Bill, at least read a little of the thread...
Please do not presume I don't read a majority of threads I post to.

My point was that in order to provide a good standard weapon for squad car trunks, nothing more than the .308 is needed. The AR15/M4 is easier to train a wide variety of police with and even the 5.56 platform could have stopped the fight with a headshot. Using a .308 M1A and a head shot would make no significant difference over the M4 (dead is dead).

The primary advantages of the .308 are the greater energy/penetration, semi-auto fire, ammo availability and the ability to obtain AP ammo for special purpose use. And you can still train a good number of officers to shoot it.

There is no need for unusual rifles in odd or brutish chamberings that produce ~4000 ft-lbs of energy. I've fired the 9.3mm round from a Mannlicher carbine and it would not be my first choice for an anti-personnel rifle. Firing a .375 H&H was more fun.

Fortunately, armored bandits are relatively few & far between. If one suspected today would involve an upcoming encounter with such, then one would opt to let the SWAT guys show up with something like the Barrett XM109 25x59mm. Y'know, just in case they're walking around with 50mm armor plates.
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Old September 3, 2008, 08:56 AM   #41
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One more reason the 308 Cal might be a good option was the shoot out of the LAPD with the SLA in South Los Angeles. I knew two of the SWAT members who were at the back of the house during the fire fight. They were trading shots with two women who where hiding behind a refridgerator that was in a back doorway. The SWAT Officers had 223 rifles and they would not penetrate the metal of the ice box. The women would shoot and then duck back behind the refridgerator. The trading of shots went on for some time until the house burned down around them. A 308 rifle would have penetrated the refridgerator and taken both of the SLA Members out in short order and the fight would have been over. I think a mix of weapons is needed but if I had just one, it would be the 308 for urban warfare.
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Old September 4, 2008, 08:33 PM   #42
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Old September 5, 2008, 08:37 AM   #43
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Another thing:

The trend in response to defeating armor is not centered around bigger guns chambered for bigger cartridges, but smaller ones; the available solutions from FN in particular. They are light, compact, easy shooting, and a specialty item restricted to tactical team use in most instances.
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Old September 5, 2008, 08:43 AM   #44
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The History Channel is running a documentary on the shooting tonight, 9-5. They will also take you to the LAPD museum and show what they were wearing.
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Old September 5, 2008, 02:54 PM   #45
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Head Shots

Okay, if it was one cop versus the two shootersand he was stuck at fifty yards, and pinned down by halfway accurate fire then a headshot might have been impracitcal.

However, there were far more cops than just one or two on the scene, and there's no way the suspects could be covering every direction that they were covered from by police officers.

It would be interesting to know how many rounds were fired by the LAPD. Because if they had the time to make and continue making usless bodyshots from cover than they likely had time to make half as many, or a third as many slower, more carefully aimed headshots.

The likelyhood that one cop, alone, with a high-cap handgun, couldn't make a single effective headshot is probably marginal or debatable. maybe, maybe not.

But with the number of officers on the scene, and the number of opprotunities for head shots available(even at very difficult distances) it seems pretty unlikely that they wouldn't eventually succeed.

At fifty yards, the background for a body shot would be almost the same as that of a heads hot. I mean,a body shot, under fire, from fifty yards is chancy. So the idea that they couldn't risk taking head shots is ridiculous, if they were sitting there firing away at body shots.

Again, it would be nice to know how many officers were on the scene, how many shots were fired, and how many of those shots were aimed at the head.

Someone mentioned a 50-75 yard moving headshot drill earlier. and hitting something like 5 headshots out of 70 tries. For the North Hollywood shootout, that would have been perfect. that's five effective headshots.

The bad guys fired hundreds and hundreds of round. Didn't kill any bystanders. The police could afford some misses, you have to take chances to stop shooters like that.

Again, How many rounds did LAPD fire. If it's more than a few, then there's your answer. The problem is the shooters, not the guns. the outgunned argument sort of goes out the window.

If I have a full auto AK, and some body armor, and I'm up against ten to twenty cops at fifty yards with Handguns, then I am the one who is outgunned. A handgun is designed for close quarters, but most are more accurate than their shooters. even good shooters. and more than capable of dealing with threats inside 100 yards.

Sure, it'd be nice to have rifles, it'd be nice to have slugs, and so on and so forth.
But that's a weak mindset. Sure the administrators are to blame for having their cops under equipped. But the cops knew they were underequipped, instead of training to complain later about being outgunned, they should have been training to win with what they had.
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Old September 5, 2008, 04:14 PM   #46
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LAPD fired something like 800-900 rounds. The robbers fired 1100+.

I can't find it now, but I believe (from memory) it was approximately 80 that were on scene of which about 40 actually engaged the robbers with gunfire. There were some 300+ (all totaled) that were involved in some capacity including the fight, support, roadblocks, helicopters, and/or were in response to the scene.

As seen from the video of the actual shooting, the robbers responded to incoming fire from 180 degrees as their backs were against the bank wall. When they moved out, they were fired on from 270 degrees. So for most of the fight, the robbers were outnumbered and flanked.

There are a couple of sites somewhere on the internet that catalog some of these statistics, but I don't have them bookmarked. If somebody does find them and could post a link, that would be terrific.
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Old September 5, 2008, 04:57 PM   #47
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The Documentary on the History Channel should answer a lot of your questions. The LAPD has one of the finest marksmanship programs going. They give a bonus on every paycheck for marksmanship. The higher the score, the higher the bonus. They also require everyone to qualify once a month. If they don't qualify, they keep trying at their own expense until they do. The first shoot is at city expense.

Take a look at how many holes there are in the black suits the bad guys were wearing. It's a mitacle they were not taken out by a head shot. The constant movement and automatic weapons must have been a factor in their ability to avoid a quick death by a head shot. The number of rounds fired would only be a rough estimate.
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Old September 5, 2008, 05:29 PM   #48
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Gentlemen,
It looks like I was wrong about the documentary on the North Hollywood shootout. I can't find it on my T V for tonight. A reliable police web site I visit said it was going to air on the west coast at 2200hrs on the History Channel tonight. Thats 10PM for you draft dodgers.
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Old September 5, 2008, 09:28 PM   #49
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Someone mentioned a 50-75 yard moving headshot drill earlier. and hitting something like 5 headshots out of 70 tries. For the North Hollywood shootout, that would have been perfect. that's five effective headshots.
IIRC it was 75 yards and the best (most lucky?) shooters were making maybe 2 or 3 hits out of 50 rounds.

There was no return fire (of course) and we had been shooting all day (warming up, if you will) gradually moving to increasing distances over the course of several hours. In addition it was possible to take a relaxed shooting stance (no need for cover) and the time constraints were not stringent.

YES, it's possible to make headshots at significant distances under ideal conditions, the problem is that it's much, MUCH easier to make body hits at the same distances with a long gun. Hitting a man sized target every time at 75 yards with a rifle is pretty much a given even for a mediocre rifle shot while a good pistol shot might be able to hit a head sized target around 5% of the time at that distance with a pistol.

The Tyler courthouse shooting and the North Hollywood shootout are perfect examples of what happens when an armored man with a rifle comes up against pistol shooters. The pistol shooters either die or are pinned down until the shooter decides to leave or defenders with rifles arrive.
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Old September 6, 2008, 02:23 PM   #50
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Im way to tired to read everything, so im sorry if this has been said before. there is no way in hell that gun fight should have lasted 44 minutes. all they had to do was deploy a sniper or two into the nearbay buildings, 2 shots and the gunfight is over
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