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Old December 24, 2008, 10:50 PM   #101
Nnobby45
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You won't find birdshot in my HD shotgun, but, then again, Clint Smith has no problem using it "in the hallway".

I'm not worried about the hallway--that's were I set up the Claymores.
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Old December 25, 2008, 12:24 AM   #102
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When law enforcement switchs , then I will. In the mean time, I will stick with OO.
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Old January 1, 2009, 09:31 PM   #103
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many don't seem to realize just what BB's are. they are very effective on coyotes and dogs out to 35-40 yds. they are not really in the realm of birdshot. I do keep my hd shotgun loaded with these. I don;t need or want the extreme penetration of 00 buck. the larger buckshots are devastating out to much greater distances than is required for home defense. BB's will do the home defense role perfectly. to those who think that 00 is needed, just how far are you shooting around the house?
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Old January 3, 2009, 05:28 AM   #104
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No caliber reliably stops a man

only placement does. A .22lr in the right place drops any living being instantly. A .50 BMG in the arm drops nothing and nobody.

And: Buckshot, 00 or 000 for defense. Even with best placement birdshot lacks the penetration.

AAnd: A .223 ouperforms a 12ga in any situation IMHO.
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Old February 5, 2009, 04:11 AM   #105
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I love the arguments about this. They go on and on with nobody really backing down from their position.

Guys that advocate buckshot in the home are a little delusional to me. They cite using rounds that "COPS USE" because hey law enforcement knows everything right? Law enforcement is going to be involved in a tactical gunfight - possibly shooting behind car doors, trying to penetrate a car door or a wall. You buckshot addicts are NOT COPS.

If you get in a shootout in your house, the guy isn't going to be shooting at you from behind a large steel trashcan with his AK47. Some of you that are grown men seriously need to grow up.

A birdshot load is lethal at any range within the home. You will stop the attacker? Kill him? I don't know, but I am positive you will stop him if you hit him and stop him cold. There are some seriously disturbed people who want to KILL their attacker and that's some psychopathic stuff right there. So many guys that dream of the day they get to kill somebody in their home. Seriously?

You have a good chance the birdshot, even a #4 birdshot will kill or seriously maim, injure anybody you hit in the chest, face or even just blow off their hand. He's not going to dive behind a piece of sheet metal and you're not going to be involved in a shootout at anything over 10 yards.

There are too many delusional people who want to be Rambo inside their home and at some point will end up killing or hurting one of their own family members because they want to blow an intruders head off with 000 magnum buckshot with exploding tips. These same guys would throw a freaking frag granade if they could. They think they're Dirty Harry or John Rambo until the day they shoot an intruder and the buck goes through to the next house over and kills little Timmy the next door neighbor.

You give me a real life example of somebody having a 40 yard shootout inside of their home, with people jumping behind car doors and sheet metal and then you'll sway my opinion on this. Inside your home, even if you live in a giant log cabin, you shoot a guy with birdshot within 10 yards, that guy is going to be serverely injured.

"What about a guy on drugs?" Use whatever excuses you need to try and sway attention away from the fact that you just want to kill somebody and be John Rambo in the process. You're going to be the big hero and blow away the bad guy right? Because cops use buckshot right? Newsflash, you're not a freaking cop.

The Military uses AR-15's and grenades, why don't you grab some grenades too while you're at it... hey, they're 100% effective at home defense range. :barf:
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Old February 5, 2009, 04:34 AM   #106
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A birdshot load is lethal at any range within the home.
Sorry, but I have small house, and from my bedroom door I can see down the hallway, and into the living room where I can observe my gunsafe. At that distance, birdshot from my cyl. bore 870 would be 18" or so, and would have no ability to penetrate much of anything.

Birdshot is lethal until it starts to spread out and actually develop a pattern, and for a short distance thereafter.

It's true that I'm not interested in shooting thru cars, and all kinds of barriers, but having to, by necessity, shoot through a couch or easy chair isn't out of the question by any means. Not a job for birdshot.

The point: A shotgun's usefulness is limited no what you load it with. It wouldn't be my practice to put more restrictions on it's usefullness.
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Old February 5, 2009, 06:29 AM   #107
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No, no, no. I x-ray people who've been shot with birdshot all the time. It rarely even penetrates past the level of the sternum. It creates a nasty, superficial wound that would only stop someone psychologically.
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Old February 5, 2009, 07:00 AM   #108
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Why not use No. 1 buckshot

Best of both worlds with lead buckshot and more of them than standard 00 buck. No. 1 buckshot will penetrate deep and provide better covereage area.
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Old February 5, 2009, 12:33 PM   #109
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I think that there are a couple of things that are forgotten when discussing birdshot and particularly BB or coarser birdshot for home defense. One is that many of the loadings available with BB Shot are steel rather than lead and thusly will not deform as easily upon impacting the target and the other is that the pattern does not disperse immediately. When my 10ga used to serve HD duty, I loaded it with BB, that's 106 pellets. I did some informal testing of my own with this shotgun and load and found that at a distance of about 7 yards, it would blow a single large hole through both sides of a plastic mannequin. This leads me to believe that at typical self-defense ranges, the pattern would disperse little if at all and be quite effective.
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Old February 5, 2009, 01:08 PM   #110
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All you guys who want to play "Tackleberry" go for it and blow through the next wall into little Timmys room. LOL @ birdshot only causing superficial wounds. At anything within 10 yards (average length of any house), it's going to go right through the skull. Just google "birdshot wounds" with the safe search off if you don't believe me.

00 Buckshot in a home is total overkill. It's going to go through your couch, through your target, through the next wall and outside the freaking house. As I said, why don't you just invest in a frag granade and blow the hell out of your house while you're at it.

Some people seriously don't understand how shot spreads and keep talking about "longer distances." You tell me when you're going to be defending yourself at 30 or 40 yards. What are you going to do? Shoot some guy in the back while he's running off your property? That's not self defense, that's murder gentlemen. Justify it however you want, but it's murder. And that's what's disturbing, many of you can't wait for the opportunity to blow away some guys back with 00 buck while he's running away from your home just so you can make up whatever story you want and "dead men tell no tales."

It's borderline psychopathic. You shouldn't be buying 00 buckshot, you should be seeing a psychotherapist to find out why you have this innate urge to kill somebody in your own home. Can you at least downgrade to 4 buck so you don't kill your own kids in the process or the neighbor down the way?

"Oh the guy might be hopped up on PCP." Let me tell you something gramps, PCP is not a widely used drug anymore. Maybe in the 70's everyone was shermed out, these days, kids are on Meth, Ecstacy and Vicodins. Unless you live in Detroit or some Favela in Brazil, there's no real reason for buckshot other than trying to impress others with your ability to blow a hole in everything you aim at. Why don't you just plant claymore mines around your property while you're at it?

Those that think birdshot doesn't have penetration, go ahead and put on a thick winter coat, stand at 40 yards and let me tap you once with it in the chest. Better yet, let me tap you once at 15 yards which is average home self defense range. I'll let you wear as many layers as you want. It's going to be just like a BB gun right? Right... sure guy.

Last edited by liquidspaceman; February 5, 2009 at 01:17 PM.
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Old February 5, 2009, 02:12 PM   #111
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And that's what's disturbing, many of you can't wait for the opportunity to blow away some guys back with 00 buck while he's running away from your home just so you can make up whatever story you want and "dead men tell no tales."
What's disturbing are the assumptions you keep making about the rest of us.

Also the flaws in your own logic. You argue that birdshot has adequate penetration but then rail against buckshot in that it will kill "little Timmy" in the next room.

If you are shooting toward the next room with "little Timmy" in it with birdshot what do you think will then happen?

I've said it before in these threads and I'll say it again, the necessity to know what lies beyond your target cannot be overcome by a change in ammo.

I'll stick with 00 buck for reliable, adequate penetration to stop the threat to me and mine.
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Old February 5, 2009, 02:31 PM   #112
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liquid?spaceman? are you being serious? I just read all 5 pages twice, no where did I read anything that you mentioned about other contributors to the thread.

Without knowing what a bg will do or where he will hide behind or stand to fire at you makes it hard to really hard to gauge what is going to work as a universal shell which is why hd's normally have staggered loads.

I personally find shooting light 6+ birdshot in any enclosed area 200-400sf or less just as dangerous to the shooter due to ricochets off walls from ones that do not penetrate. nothing like defending your home with a pellet to the eye at 3 am right? Not saying that other shots would not given the right circumstance, but they would be far less likely.

my hd is staggered 1 00 buck, 2 slugs, 2 00 buck, 1 slug.

If you truly are worried about what you are going to do to the bg or couch, load up on beanbag rounds then ...though be careful as even those are known to be lethal at 5 yrds.
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Old February 5, 2009, 03:15 PM   #114
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After reading Bart's links I reckon there will be a run 00 sales due to many TFL members
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Old February 5, 2009, 03:28 PM   #115
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run 00 sales
Thank goodness my safe is well stocked already........
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Old February 5, 2009, 04:14 PM   #116
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And that's what's disturbing, many of you can't wait for the opportunity to blow away some guys back with 00 buck while he's running away from your home just so you can make up whatever story you want and "dead men tell no tales."

It's borderline psychopathic. You shouldn't be buying 00 buckshot, you should be seeing a psychotherapist to find out why you have this innate urge to kill somebody in your own home.
I, for one, would like to see your supporting evidence of your claims.
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Old February 5, 2009, 04:37 PM   #117
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*Required disclaimer... In no way am I saying i am for the following behavior!!!
If I was cold blooded killer wanting to abuse the castle doctrine ruling I would simply invite a convicted felon to supper and blow his guts out instead...
If i were just a cold blooded killer I would invite someone with few relatives, friends or acquaintance to go on a hog dog hunt, cut their throat and feed them to the hogs... or if I was a totally ruthless killer I could take them shark fishing and run them thru an institutional size meat grinder and chum up some sharks!

I hope you understand I take a high level of offense at being looked at as a killer wannabe for intending to defend my home with the prudent application of smokeless powder propelled lead!
I really have read few threads on ANY board of any genre that turned my stomach :barf:
Quote:
And that's what's disturbing, many of you can't wait for the opportunity to blow away some guys back with 00 buck while he's running away from your home just so you can make up whatever story you want and "dead men tell no tales."

It's borderline psychopathic. You shouldn't be buying 00 buckshot, you should be seeing a psychotherapist to find out why you have this innate urge to kill somebody in your own home.
:barf: but this one statement really tops all! But when it comes to me and mine I claim no passive posture... It is all about win at all costs! My wife and kids are happy knowing that daddy will not haggle with their safety and that... BUD... is what I am living for!
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Old February 5, 2009, 04:41 PM   #118
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Yeah birdshot will make someone dead, but only a little bit dead. If you want to be really sure you should use 00 or maybe 000 to make them extra super duper thilly willy dead.
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Old February 5, 2009, 04:48 PM   #119
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Ask Dick Cheney's Hunting Pardner

Down here in Texas they use 28 guages loaded with 3/4 oz of 7 1/2 shot for attorneys doesn't kill em but does put them down for the count no one realy cares their as plentiful as rabbits.


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Old February 5, 2009, 05:01 PM   #120
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00 Buckshot in a home is total overkill. It's going to go through your couch, through your target, through the next wall and outside the freaking house. As I said, why don't you just invest in a frag granade and blow the hell out of your house while you're at it.
You would be surprised at what penetrates far more than 00 Buck...http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
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Old February 5, 2009, 10:42 PM   #121
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Thank you, Dr. Liquidspaceman. Shall I pay at the door, or will you bill me later? Is psychiatric help still 5 cents?

Every time the birdshot vs buckshot fray comes up, I post this link: http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...n/herdson.html .

Even buckshot is not enough sometimes, even SLUGS are not enough for a stop sometimes. I'm not going to use birdshot for defense, given any choice in the matter.

YMMV of course.

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Old February 6, 2009, 01:08 AM   #122
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I always love the anecdotal links to other message boards whose brothers, nephews, 2nd cousin is a Law Enforcement Officer and how the buckshot won against the birdshot. Jeez people are gullible when it comes to fish stories.

You can tell your fishy stories all you want about the mean old perp who got laid out with buckshot and how the birdshot didn't do a thing.

Here's a photo of what .410 birdshot will do to a skull. Warning, images are graphic. From the FBI website, not some story about a cousins, brother in laws, stepson who is a LEO and saw a guy get shot point blank in the head with birdshot and went out drinking the next day.

You guys enjoy your delusions while you check out the gruesome photo.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backis...search2_10.jpg

MAN WOUNDED BY BIRDSHOT:

http://pro.corbis.com/images/AAKA002...CCF5B56BAB9%7D
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Old February 6, 2009, 04:06 AM   #123
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Here's a photo of what .410 birdshot will do to a skull.
...
MAN WOUNDED BY BIRDSHOT:
Please provide links to the original captioning identifying these pictures.
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Old February 6, 2009, 09:21 AM   #124
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I always love the anecdotal links to other message boards whose brothers, nephews, 2nd cousin is a Law Enforcement Officer and how the buckshot won against the birdshot. Jeez people are gullible when it comes to fish stories.
The links to message boards were when the original link to the article was no longer available; of course only two of those links were to a message board and both contained the text and source of the original article for anyone who wishes to investigate further.

Is your case is so weak that you felt a need to misstate what was contained in my link? For that matter, even if your case is so weak that you feel a need to misstate the content of those links, does it make much sense to do it when anybody here can click on the links and see for themselves?

Quote:
Here's a photo of what .410 birdshot will do to a skull.
I see a photo of a dead guy. I don't see any information identifying that as birdshot or a .410.

Again, I see a photo of a wounded man. No identification as to how the man was wounded or with what. In any case, he looks to be capable of pulling the trigger on a firearm if he had one, so I'm not sure how it supports your case.

Of course, there is lots of blood there; but that isn't unusual since birdshot often makes bloody, horrific looking wounds that aren't effective at stopping a threat. Here is a graphic example of a similarly dramatic looking wound caused by a Glaser/Magsafe type pistol round - except this also shows the x-rays demonstrating how deeply the light shot penetrated (despite being purposely compressed into a solid core in this case).
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Old February 6, 2009, 01:51 PM   #125
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Yes Bartholemew because a bloodied up guy is really a threat after a birdshot hit from 20 feet away. You keep talking about "not effective at stopping." Oh it's effective. What you really want to say is birdshot doesn't kill.

Why can't you guys just admit that you want to see the perp dead? It's not a bad thing to be a murderer. I mean, we're all animals after all.

I can guarantee you that my 6 shot shotgun loaded with birdshot would be all I need to effectively STOP an attack. I am happy with that and don't care if I killed or not.

You on the other hand, want to make sure the perp is dead and that's what it boils down to. One shot, one kill is effectively saying you want to murder somebody. Otherwise you would be happy with 6 rounds of birdshot. I can guarantee you that the first time he gets hit and the second time racking, he's not going to go anywhere and will do exactly what you ask, but you're only interested in getting to "vital organs."

Nothing but a forum full of borderline psychopaths. It's no wonder that America considers NRA members and gun owners as "GUN NUTS" because you guys are obsessed with the kill and care about nothing else but opening up the guys chest with a 6 inch gaping hole.

Safety of your family my ass. You just want to kill somebody.
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