The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 27, 2008, 08:20 PM   #76
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,539
Why are y'all acting like he asked about 7 1/2 skeet loads? BB shot is pretty big (yes I know it's smaller than 00.) I think that's what they use to hunt Canadian geese.

BB is probably a good compromise. It'll make a devastating wound, the question is will it go deep enough. Probably, but I'd feel better using #1 buckshot to be a little more sure. And with larger shot, you won't have to use a magnum load -- might give you a better chance of getting a 2nd shot on target.
"Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth
zxcvbob is online now  
Old July 27, 2008, 08:25 PM   #77
Senior Member
Join Date: March 28, 2005
Posts: 728
This debate could go on forever. When you talk about bird shot that is a general term usually referring to anything that isn't buck shot, as far as shot is concerned. The op is asking about BB shot specifically. That is generally considered the largest shot size of all bird shot. There are about 50 per oz. At close range, 10-25 feet within a dwelling, the shot pattern will be very small. The pattern itself will not be flat but instead have some depth to it. The shot in front will slow and stop in the target while some of the shot behind is still moving. I'm not saying I don't prefer Buckshot but a load of BB's in the torso is going to slow the fight down considerably. And if it looks like it isn't over the next two shots will pretty much put an end to it. And if you should happen to shoot a little high and your adversary gets a face full of BB's it will stop. If it doesn't you'll be having a shoot out with Stevie Wonder.
Air goes in and out. Blood goes 'round and 'round.
Any variation on this is a very bad thing.
개인 정보를 보호하십시요
WIN71 is offline  
Old July 28, 2008, 03:31 AM   #78
grey sky
Senior Member
Join Date: July 2, 2007
Posts: 324
Has anyone heard of double barrel, pump or semi auto I understand shotguns can be repeaters having the advantage of quick follow up shots. What century am I in?
Sorry just being a wise guy. But it stil remains true that bird or buck muliple 7/8ths oz hits are going to be a conversation stoper.
grey sky is offline  
Old August 2, 2008, 03:08 AM   #79
Junior member
Join Date: December 10, 2001
Location: Burbs of Minneapolis
Posts: 676
In a word NO, you want effective stopping potential then get #4 buck or OO buck get the reduced recoil stuff
rn22723 is offline  
Old August 2, 2008, 03:37 AM   #80
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,149
Sometimes I wonder why I even post here!
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old August 2, 2008, 05:36 PM   #81
Junior Member
Join Date: June 6, 2005
Location: Epping, NH
Posts: 13
Two of our fatal shooting involved just that. Of course both were within a few feet of the intended target.
R.D. Scalzo
Epping, NH

rscalzo is offline  
Old August 12, 2008, 09:47 PM   #82
Join Date: January 22, 2008
Location: Shenandoah Valley of VA
Posts: 87
Clint Smith Articles

As mentioned, found in GUNS Magazine

Duck Guns for Defense (2005)

Shotguns - Still A Great Option (2008)

Affordable Home Defense (2008)
T191032 is offline  
Old August 17, 2008, 08:46 PM   #83
Junior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Posts: 5

All this talk about whimpy

The OP asked.."Will a 12 Gauge Loaded with BB Shot Stop a Man Effectively??..."

Depends on the range of the encounter, of course. Within a normal sized house, I have no doubt it would stop them very effectively.

Also, there is a HUGE difference between low-base #8 for doves and quail ( light weight bird shot), and high-base BB shot.

By the fav load for my SD shotguns is #1 buckshot, Winchester Super-X non-magnum 2 3/4. That has 16 pellets, and packs one hell of a punch.

Last edited by mod29; August 17, 2008 at 11:36 PM.
mod29 is offline  
Old August 18, 2008, 01:15 PM   #84
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,783
I think the answer to using magnum BB loads is "range" or better yet "close range"

I would spend the money and buy some 00 buck but if for some reason all I had was magnum BB loads I would want to be at a range of 20 feet or less.
Perfect. That's why I shoot my HD and carry pistols at 7 yards only. It's the longest in-home distance in this area on average, and certainly in my home. I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I don't even own a shotgun other than a single-shot 12 ga 28 dollar special that has never been fired in the 30 or so years I've owned it. But hypothetically, armed with a shotgun, loaded with birdshot, in my home, I certainly wouldn't put it down and go looking for my .45 if faced with a home invader.

But I doubt that I'll ever use a shotgun for HD. I'm just not good enough with them.
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old August 18, 2008, 08:10 PM   #85
Superhouse 15
Senior Member
Join Date: September 13, 2007
Location: Sunny Florida
Posts: 844
Well Said

Well said Mod29. The difference between Wal Mart cheap #8 shot and some big T shot is huge. Dont forget T shot is .20 cal and weighs like 14gr. #8 is like .09cal and about 1.1gr.

Lets figure the energy of one pellet and estimate 1100FPS:

T shot: about 38 FPE
8 shot: less than 3 FPE
Superhouse 15 is offline  
Old August 18, 2008, 09:20 PM   #86
Join Date: February 28, 2007
Posts: 27
Living in KY we have cool/cold weather around 6-8 months of the year. couple this with some young punks wearing multiple layers of clothes almost all year and some even using phone books as "armour" and 12ga 00 was my choice. It will get someone's attention no matter what time of year it is.

I thought about a 20ga or 7 1/2 shot for my wife but I think she can learn to handle the 12ga (which she has). Its not a lot of fun to just shoot a lot at a range but that's not the point of that weapon.

Cyklopz is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 08:03 AM   #87
Junior member
Join Date: May 10, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,774
Has anyone heard of double barrel, pump or semi auto I understand shotguns can be repeaters having the advantage of quick follow up shots. What century am I in?
Actually, I have a FN Self Loading Police ( SLP ) Mark I semiautomatic shotgun. It's capacity is 8 + 1 shells.

So yes, I would probably fire more than one shell in a self-defense scenario.

Here is a photo of "Bubba" relaxing in my bedroom, waiting for a home invader to come visit:

LanceOregon is offline  
Old August 19, 2008, 08:20 PM   #88
Join Date: August 17, 2008
Location: CT (People's Republic of Konnecticut
Posts: 65
00 or larger up here. We got some big fat street thugs peddling dat crack. Them little BB's might get stopped in the adipose layer and never get to the vitals. Throwing out a dozen or so .33 cal +/- shot gives me a warm fuzzy with my 5+1 Mossy. having wifey backing me up with the same rig with a light/laser on it makes me warmer and fuzzier. Leave birdshot to pheasants and doves.
fjk1911 is offline  
Old September 16, 2008, 04:58 AM   #89
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 1999
Location: Texas
Posts: 197
Keep in mind a few things; plated lead shot usually penetrates a little better than bare lead shot and tungsten shot penetrates more than plated lead. When you think of BB size shot, think about a BB gun or pellet rifle (.17-.18 caliber). These BB size pellets probably won’t be moving faster than 1300 fps. I have shot crows with a .17 caliber pellets moving out at 1200 fps and it seldom went completely through the bird. BB shot in ballistic gel often penetrates less than 6” and the FBI feels 12” is needed to be quickly effective on a threat target. BB shells hold around 70 pellets, but that doesn’t mean much if they won’t penetrate to vitals. BB shot up close might certainly kill a Goblin, but it is questionable as to if it would stop them quickly. If you are worried about over penetration in a home environment, then perhaps a compromise is in order. I would not want to go lower than #4 Buckshot using tungsten pellets. This would give you about 20 pellets of 24 caliber moving out at 1200-1300 fps. If you found #4 Buckshot in tungsten and in 3” shells , with their added velocity, it would probably be pretty effective at ranges of 10 yards and under. Lead #4 Buckshot usually penetrates 9”-11” of ballistic gel. I would expect tungsten and/or 3” loads to reach the FBI’s so called magical 12”. # 1 Buck may be a decent compromise as it launches 11-12 pellets of 30 caliber and penetrates 12”-14”.

All that being said, BB shot to the head or fast repeat shots to the body at 5 yards or less could probably solve your problem, but IMHO, you need something with a little more punch. #1 Buck should give you 10-12 pellets and penetrate 12”-14”, and an “F” load would give you about 40 pellets of 22 caliber with a gel penetration of 8”-10”.
If 10% is good enough for God, why isn't it good enough for the Internal Revenue Service?
TEX is offline  
Old September 16, 2008, 07:51 PM   #90
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2007
Location: TX
Posts: 267
So basically it goes like this......

Birdshot CAN kill people. I've seen it happen. Other people on this forum have seen it happen too, apparently. BUT, it doesnt ALWAYS kill people. Other people on this forum have seen and can attest to that as well. So basically, you might kill them, you might not.

Buckshot, as we all know, CAN kill people. The chances of this are higher than will birdshot, as most people here would probably agree with. However, even buckshot doesnt ALWAYS kill people.

BOTH rounds can go through walls under the right conditions. As can pistol rounds. And rifle rounds.

So, you can choose to go with birdshot, which has been known to have mixed results in the killing department. Or you can go with buckshot, which has notably better results. Your choice, but I think it would be foolish not to acknowledge that buckshot is by far the better choice to reliably, consistently, and efficiently dispatch bad guys with.
GalilARM is offline  
Old September 16, 2008, 08:25 PM   #91
Join Date: September 16, 2008
Posts: 67
The answer lies in the range.

At a range of 10 feet or less...yes.

30 feet away (i.e. other end of a long hallway)..........not so much.

I'd just go with 00 buck or slugs.
SGT-MILLER is offline  
Old September 16, 2008, 09:25 PM   #92
Senior Member
Join Date: May 30, 2001
Location: Lacomb, Oregon
Posts: 1,393
as no kinda expert and never having been shot or shot someone w/ a shotgun (or anything else), justa a curious guy w/ a shotgun an ten acres...

seems to me that at home defense range (18 ft is a big room and a third the length of my unibomber style hut) that whatever size shot you use most if it will still be in or about the shot cup. Also seems to me Brandon Lee was killed by the wad from a 12 gauge - no shot at all. Also the univeristy student body pres that was killed a few months ago, when the autopsy came in the shot cup was found in her skull. When the Vice Pres cheney'd his hunting buddy it wasn't fatal by any means - range is a big factor w/ shotties.

As for me my coach gun has a slug on the right and 00 buck on the other (the Uncle Mikes butt sleeve has a mix of slugs and 00 buck), I think this will stop late night knocking and scratching at my door - nevermore
Molon Labe

"The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson
Don't Tread On Me!
"Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none" -- Thomas Jefferson

In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us.
-Thich Nhat Hanh
Seeker is offline  
Old September 17, 2008, 07:15 AM   #93
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Posts: 257
How many of you have ever witnessed first hand what a shotgun w/ #7's does to a human at room distance?


Well I have and im here to tell you it works. at 8-10 feet the damn cup was inside the guy. the cluster of shot was inside a softball size pattern. he was lucky that he got hit low in the hip. a chest shot would have killed him deader than disco.
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and higher education positively fortifies it." Stephen Vizinczey
ringworm is offline  
Old September 17, 2008, 11:09 AM   #94
Scattergun Bob
Senior Member
Join Date: February 29, 2008
Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington
Posts: 1,186

I have seen SEVERAL. I question your observations at 10 feet the pattern should be about 2" not the size of a softball, can you explain that?

No one who "actually knows" balistics questions the fact that most shot sizes are adequate at 10 ft, lets try and stay with the original posting, REMEMBER it was out of doors, and I have no real idea of distance.

I will say again, why in the world would you choose to limit yourself by purposefully using bird shot against a large heavy target!

Good Luck & Be Safe
First, with the most, WINS!
Regards, Scattergun Bob
Scattergun Bob is offline  
Old September 17, 2008, 11:49 AM   #95
Junior member
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Posts: 954
The first shooting I went to as a Troop involved a guy getting hit in the xyphoid (that's the lower chest, bottom of the rib cage) at 15 ft with a load of #6 low brass 20 ga. Dropped him where he stood. The hole was about the size of a golf ball with some ragged edges. We found shot against his spine.
I've also seen 00B where the pattern was so blown out due to the distance involved, about 40 yds, that the guy on the receiving end only sustained superficial wounds on his legs and arms, none in the torso.
ISP2605 is offline  
Old September 18, 2008, 03:00 PM   #96
Junior member
Join Date: May 4, 2007
Location: Meechigan
Posts: 492
I've personally seen two head wounds from point blank range from a 12g with small birdshot, not sure of the size. One was self-inflicted. Both survived, although one was fairly mangled (most of the right jaw and left ear area blown off). Neither had any of the birdshot actually penetrate the skull. Either could have continued the fight had they been a meth or crackhead intent on hurting someone else.

My agency also sends us incident reports. I've seen many, many photos of similar birdshot failures at short range. I wouldn't trust it, but if I did have to carry birdshot, the larger the better. Didn't one of the gellatin sites suggest that #2 birdshot almost made the magical 12" penetration at short range?
nemoaz is offline  
Old September 18, 2008, 03:27 PM   #97
Junior member
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Posts: 954
I've personally seen two head wounds from point blank range from a 12g with small birdshot, not sure of the size. One was self-inflicted. Both survived,
We have a guy in prison now who shot himself in the head with a .270 and survived after he had killed his grandfather with the .270. Does that make the .270 only 50% effective? Or does it matter what the path the bullet takes? I think we all know the answer to that question.
ISP2605 is offline  
Old December 24, 2008, 12:17 AM   #98
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 783
BB is fine for home protection

A friend of mine who is an emergency room doctor once examined a man DOA. He pulled the plastic shotgun wad out of the victims chest. The internals were shreaded by birdshot. I think 00 buck is great for police who might have to penetrate a car door or a baricaded combat situation when shots are measured in yards and not feet. However, most states require your life to be in imminent danger before you pull the trigger and the attacker must therefore be coming at you closing the distance. In a typical house straight shots are typically less than 50 feet. At 3 feet a #8 load from a 20 guage will blast completely through a 2X4. In my opinion, BB shot is pretty big and penetrates much more than #6 or 8 shot. I would not think there would be anything wrong with loading a couple of BB lead shells followed by some form of buckshot for home defense given that you understand effective range is limited to about 10-15 feet and after the first shot an attacker might try to take cover. I would not use steel as it would be more likely to bounce back. I would never shoot a slug in a house or urban area because the liability would be too great to strike an innocent person, but for rural defense in a bear infested area slugs would be great. I think people often take a stubborn position, but there is no perfect ammo or gun for every situation. Who would want to pump out 00 Buck indiscriminantly if a childs bedroom is just down the hall or behind a wall. Having a variety of shells available is better than just one.

It's pretty amazing what a load of #6 will do to a lowly pheasant even out to 20 or 30 yards from a full or modified choke. My friend and I have blown wings off birds, and his son just about blew one in half at close range because he didn't wait for the bird to fly far enough for the pattern to open up. Go ahead and make fun of my anecdotal experiences, but any shotgun load is superior to any handgun load at close range against unarmored targets. To mock someone for wanting to use BB shot rather than buck is rediculous. The biggest problem with BB shot is that it's hard to find these days with waterfowl limited to shooting non toxic at geese. Buckshot is relatively common.

Thankfully, use of guns for self defense is not yet a daily experience for most people. Being prepared is great, but not paranoid. rc
rc is offline  
Old December 24, 2008, 01:48 AM   #99
Junior member
Join Date: October 23, 2008
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 411
If you hit them in the neck and face im gonna say its instantly fatal
onthejon55 is offline  
Old December 24, 2008, 10:39 PM   #100
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: gulf of mexico
Posts: 2,716
i see nobody has mentioned loads like heavy shot, they are heavier than lead and commonly found in loads like BB.
this will give you more penetration than standard lead, and still have lots of pellets to shred some goblin.
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
troy_mclure is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:22 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10953 seconds with 8 queries