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Old July 12, 2008, 09:23 PM   #1
LanceOregon
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Will a 12 Gauge Loaded with BB Shot Stop a Man Effectively??

Here is a demo of a Remington 870 shooting magnum loads of BB shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcUf6iTv_aQ

Do you believe that a human being could survive these hits??? Or would they be near instantly fatal?

.
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Old July 13, 2008, 12:10 AM   #2
Slopemeno
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I know they have.

I know (worked 3 doors down, know the owner) a gunstore that was in the midst of a robbery, and one of the guys working in the back rolled out with a 12 ga and centerpunched the bad guy from very short range with birdshot. Bad guy survived and went to state prison.

Very dramatic, but no comparison.
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Old July 13, 2008, 02:27 AM   #3
David Armstrong
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Somebody, somewhere, has survived just about every PDW ever made, and some that are a lot bigger. So yes, some can survive, some have survived, but a 12 gauge loaded with large pellets is probably about as effective a stopper as most of us are likely encounter.
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Old July 13, 2008, 03:51 AM   #4
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NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

No.

Birdshot is for birds.

I would likely stop them, but why bother with likely when you, or more importantly your FAMILY'S, asses are on the line.
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Old July 13, 2008, 06:28 AM   #5
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At close range, I believe it does more damage than buckshot. The birdshot wounds I've seen were devastating. So were the buckshot wounds, but not to nearly the same degree. Keep in mind this was at close range. These were all within 10 yards.
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Old July 13, 2008, 08:27 AM   #6
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Here's my thoughts on 12 ga for home defense. First leave the BBs for the birds or other game. I want to be able to control the amount of lead that could be fired in my home.


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Old July 13, 2008, 08:47 AM   #7
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I am reminded of my hunter safety class when I was a lad;

The instructor took a large head of cabbage and placed it on a post 20 feet from us. He informed us that it was significantly tougher than a human skull.

One shot of a 12 ga Mag goose load of BB shot and it was destroyed like the watermelons in the video. Our 12 year old eyes went WIDE with newfound respect for ' bird shot ' LOL

Take a look a the size chart: http://www.wilsonprecision.com/shotinfo.html

B and BB shot is no where near what is commonly thought of as ' bird ' shot like number 6, 7 or 8.

I would not feel undergunned with a mag load of B or BB shot.
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Old July 13, 2008, 09:24 AM   #8
Double Naught Spy
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Quote:
Do you believe that a human being could survive these hits??? Or would they be near instantly fatal?
False dichotomy. A human may not survive the hits, but the hits may not be instantly fatal, LOL!
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Old July 13, 2008, 09:31 AM   #9
KMO
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If the objctive is to stop someone by using a 12-gauge shotgun for personal defense, why would one consider any load (BB or other bird shot) that leaves any doubt whatsoever regarding its effectiveness in doing the job reliably? 00 buck removes all doubt. It's as dependable a load for defense purposes as any available.
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Old July 13, 2008, 09:54 AM   #10
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Greetings all.
Are you concerned with overpenetration? If so, load up some #4(approx. 34 pellets) or #1 buck(approx. 16 pellets). Please don't use birdshot for protection.
I remember a story of a police officer that was practicing at the range with birdshot to save money and when he was done he forgot to load up his duty ammunition buckshot. Later that night he responded to a home invasion or something similar with two suspects. He grabbed his shotgun forgetting it was loaded with birdshot. A firefight ensued and the officer died while the 2 suspects got away.
Take care
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Old July 13, 2008, 11:43 AM   #11
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There must be a reason the police use 00 Buck instead of BB shot. Until they switch, I'll stick with the buckshot.
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Old July 13, 2008, 11:53 AM   #12
Tim Burke
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Depends on range, choke and shot placement. In general, something that penetrates more would be preferred.
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Old July 13, 2008, 11:58 AM   #13
Tim Burke
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Watched the video. While impressive, melons are usually fairly impressive reactive targets because they are very inelastic, unlike muscle and skin.
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Old July 13, 2008, 12:16 PM   #14
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I'll stick with 00 with Brenneke's as backup.
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Old July 13, 2008, 01:24 PM   #15
MisterWilson
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Any bird shot load will make horrendous-LOOKING shallow wounds.

However, will it penetrate a foot through flesh or gelatin? Until it does, you folks are out of your everliving minds if you think using it for defense is even semi-acceptable.
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Old July 13, 2008, 01:39 PM   #16
Pilot
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I don't use a shotgun for home defense, just for bird hunting. I took two handgun courses with a very experienced well know instructor who also teaches shotgun courses. For home defense he recommended a 12 gauge with bird shot instead of 00 buck. He said penetration thorugh walls and doors was an issue with the buck shot. Again, I'm not advocating, just passing it along.
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Old July 13, 2008, 02:04 PM   #17
MisterWilson
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It's an issue with any firearm fired in a wood frame home, but worrying about the neighbors comes somewhere AFTER worrying about me & mine on my list of priorities.

That's not to say I don't want them to be safe as well, but stopping an immediate threat quickly & completely comes first and foremost.

My family > The Neighbors
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Old July 13, 2008, 02:15 PM   #18
rantingredneck
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Quote:
I don't use a shotgun for home defense, just for bird hunting. I took two handgun courses with a very experienced well know instructor who also teaches shotgun courses. For home defense he recommended a 12 gauge with bird shot instead of 00 buck. He said penetration thorugh walls and doors was an issue with the buck shot. Again, I'm not advocating, just passing it along.
Yep, buckshot will penetrate walls. Handgun rounds will too, and worse.
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Old July 13, 2008, 02:54 PM   #19
Superhouse 15
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Herer

Your home and mine may not be the same. What if you have an open floor plan and your baby or invalid bed ridden grandma are "downrange"? I'm going to side with Clint Smith on this one. A load of #6 to the face or crotch will change the outcome of the fight. I will also add that a charge of BB or T shot will blast a big fat Coyote off of it's feet at 40 yards or so with a good choke putting lots of pellets on target. Imagine that at the 20 foot or so range from your bedroom door to front door, across your driveway or garage, etc.

In case some new folks haven't seen this:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
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Old July 13, 2008, 02:56 PM   #20
Hawg
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I've related this a couple of times before but a buddy of mine was shot from across a small room with a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot. He underwent a lot of surgery but he lived. The guy that shot him didn't survive the encounter and my buddy was unarmed. Now granted the gun was a single shot and if the guy had a pump or auto the outcome probably would have been different. One shot with birdshot may or may not stop an attacker. I put my money on 00 buckshot
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Old July 13, 2008, 04:45 PM   #21
Erik
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To answer the question: No, a 12 guage loaded with BB shot should not be thought of as being able to stop a man effectively. Yes, that is a pretty broad and encompassing statement; it is in answer to a similarly broad and encompassing question.

Buckshot, for good reason, is the prevalent choice for police, military, and self defense uses. When it isn't the favored option, slugs are substituted, again for good reason.
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Last edited by Erik; July 13, 2008 at 05:20 PM.
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Old July 13, 2008, 05:07 PM   #22
Erik
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Superhouse 15,
Not to nit-pick, but for clarity. You seem to be an advocate of sub-buckshot for self defense. And you stated: "I'm going to side with Clint Smith on this one."

You then referred to a Box of Truth review of a Clint Smith class. The text of which states:

"We were told to bring 400 rounds of birdshot, 150 rounds of #4 or 00 Buckshot, and 25 slugs."
and
"Clint doesn't recommend birdshot for defense, but it is a good and cheap load for practice."

Now, there's some confusion that might come out of that, as you can probably see.

Is there another article you could link to that could help us rectify what seems to be two positions, one that's an industry standard and one that's ... surprising, of Clint Smith's?

Thanks,
Erik
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Last edited by Erik; July 13, 2008 at 06:52 PM.
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Old July 13, 2008, 05:19 PM   #23
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And I've posted before I had a high school friend who got half his head blown off from bird shot, or enough of it he lived on life support for only 3 hours. Until I see something different in RL which contradicts that experience I'll keep to my own opinions before being swayed by folks on an internet forum, no matter how well intentioned they believe they are. Sorry, seen the results first hand.

You guys can go back to your debate now.
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Old July 13, 2008, 05:23 PM   #24
shinnery jim
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I agree that buck is the right thing. but in a pinch if all I had was bird shot I will darn sure use it will it take more than one? well that is the chance I will take if I dont have anything else.
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Old July 13, 2008, 05:24 PM   #25
MisterWilson
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Umm, did him having his head attached to the barrel have anything to do with that?
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