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Old December 10, 2002, 01:37 PM   #51
75SIZZLER
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Good Lord people

I don't know where you live but I feel that if anyone got past my 3 Amigos I could handle what ever is left with Spoon. Ok, really I always have my Security-Six .357 next to my bed just in case, but my gosh what some of you people say you have at the ready by your bed is crazy. You talk like you live in Bosnia or some place like that. I'm all for self-protection but come on! The only time I have ever heard of a multitude of people breaking in a door and swarming a house is when SWAT does it, or it is a drug related gang thing.

(On a side note: I think it was about 5 years ago that a drug bust gone bad in kali where the home owner was woken up by the door being broke down, I belive he grabbed the handgun next to the bed and the Cops saw him raise the gun and shot him. The bad part was they had the wrong house. )
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Old December 10, 2002, 11:57 PM   #52
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Old December 11, 2002, 05:48 PM   #53
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Quote:
The only time I have ever heard of a multitude of people breaking in a door and swarming a house is when SWAT does it, or it is a drug related gang thing.
A guy I used to work with moonlighted as an alleged bounty-hunter. One night he and 4 other so-called bounty-hunters decided to go after what they thought was drug money, and assaulted a house. they rounded up most of the occupying family in the living room, then kicked in the door of the master bedroom. The guy who happened to be in the bed managed to wound 2 of them with a pistol despite their kevlar. They then hosed the bedroom with rifle fire, killing the man and woman occupants. My wonderful coworker is now on death row, and the rest got life. There were no drugs or apparent drug money on the premises.

2 doors down from me 3 gangster invaded a home in the middle of the night, probably also looking for a drug dealer with cash. All they found was a working class family with nothing to appease the thugs. The shot the husband in the head, then raped the wife and beat her into a coma. This was in front of the 3 kids.

Not only the cops raid the wrong house.
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Old June 8, 2004, 04:22 AM   #54
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I have (and would ALWAYS prefer to use) an assortment of baseball bats, golf clubs, axe handles, crowbars, mag-lites, etc. If you supplement the bludgeons with pepper spray, you've got yourself a good ol' fashioned beat-down, guaranteed.

As far as I know, most home invaders in their right mind don't carry guns, since the punishment for armed burglary is quite a bit harsher than unarmed. Most decently heavy, blunt objects will usually give you the advantage, unless your new friend is actually armed.

If I'm feeling extra paraniod, I'll grab my pistol-grip 6+1 18" Remington 870 and whatever shells are close by, hopefully 00.

If I'm feeling frisky, I'll pop a 10-round stripper clip in my Yugo SKS and flip out the bayonet. Can you say shishkabob?!?! Four times fast?

The AR-15 is all fine and dandy, but can it really stop an assailant in one shot? Somebody please convince me. Don't get me wrong, I love my AR, (especially with the 30-rnd clip) but I like the security of having something a little (or a lot) bigger than .223.

Of course, the closest gun (and the loaded gun) is usually a pistol, which makes it my first line of defense in most cases. I like to sleep with my Ruger P-944 next to my pillow, loaded up with 135-grain Federal hydra-shocks.

Knives are cool too, but I would think of them last. I don't really want to stab anyone and they're probably the least effective in confronting or scaring off an invader. Of course, if you have to tangle with someone in hand-to-hand combat, a knife is probably your best bet. I keep a couple of sheath knives under my bed just in case the boogeyman jumps through my bedroom window.

I've got a Katana sword, but it's really just meant as a display piece. However, the blade is plenty sharp and I wouldn't hesitate to go samurai on a burglar's ass if it was the closest weapon.

I also used to have a telescoping steel baton, but it cracked after several bouts of abusive misuse. Damn tree stumps. I'd buy another, but it turns out they're illegal to carry concealed and if I'm at home, I'd rather just use a crowbar or a tire iron.

Hmmmm... what about a plain ol' knuckle sandwich? I'm a pretty big guy at 6' 220lbs, but my brother (who is also my roommate), is 6'4" and plays rugby for UW. I think he's scary enough to send most trespassers packing. We got in a little argument/scuffle last month and accidentally broke the computer desk, a lamp, a potted plant and a couple of bar-stools. That's us going easy on each other. (Don't worry, we made up right after he dislocated my shoulder.) Lord have mercy if we really wanted to hurt someone, they'd end up in the hospital, at best.
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Old June 8, 2004, 05:03 AM   #55
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I usually use a Glock35 loaded with a 15 round high cap with an M3 light and extra mags beside the bed. I wouldn't want to fight someone at O dark thirty with clubs, knives or such. There have been many cases in Vegas of home invasions where there have been more than one invader. Shotguns and AR's are all good choices and I have these as back ups but for now I will use a pistol.
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Old June 8, 2004, 08:37 AM   #56
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Some of these old posts are very interesting - like finding "treasure" in the attic

"One night he and 4 other so-called bounty-hunters ... assaulted a house... rounded up most of the occupying family ... kicked in the door of the master bedroom. The guy ... in the bed managed to wound 2 of them with a pistol despite their kevlar. They then hosed the bedroom ... killing the man and woman occupants. "

"2 doors down from me 3 gangster invaded a home in the middle of the night ... shot the husband in the head, then raped the wife and beat her into a coma. This was in front of the 3 kids."


While reading through the individual defense arms and plan scenarios, I couldn't help but think, what about the BGs with vitamin K?

I am from SE Florida and believe me, they have multiple HIs. Further, FL has a "home is castle" law, which means that most BGs know that they have a good chance that, if they don't turn and run faster than Mach 1, they are gonna get carried out.

I drifted up the firepower chain from handguns in .40 S&W & 10MM to a shotgun. Did a lot of shopping and listening to my trainer. I took him to a gunshow on a shopping trip looking for a semiauto shotgun, ended up with a super deal on a Remington 1100 with a 24" bbl. Don't laugh now - it is fully compensated, has a full mag tube for 10 +1 and is a preban with a pistol stock. I have trained shooting it in a number of ways, which include single-handed rapid fire with the stock tucked under my arm and slow fire with the stock jammed back and a tight cheek weld. It works. A semiauto SG is a fantastic weapon, allowing you to use your weakside hand for a number of tasks, like transitioning to your sidearm (learn to shoot weakside!).

I load my SG with 5+1 reduced recoil, 12 ga. 00 buck. They are followed by high velocity, sabot slugs - Brennecke or Win Partition Gold. The former is for effect at ranges of up to 10 to 12 yds - I get some fist sized spread at that range. Up to that range, 9 x .31 caliber lead balls @ 1,400 fps - don't forget the packaging - will do some serious damage just about anywhere you hit on the torso. I get 8" groups doing double and triple tap routines under stress at those ranges. The sabot slugs are simply there because I guess that if they are still moving after getting sprayed with buckshot, they may be packed in Kevlar. Unless they are wearing plates, I think they will notice a sabot slug. I also have a 10 round bandolier (5 x 00 buck & 5 sabots) and a 5 rounds (5 sabots) on the side. I wear the sidearm (10MM) in a crossdraw holster with thumb-break. I am not very worried about over penetration in my main defensive position, at the top of the stairs in front of the safe room. I am planning to install a lockable, high strength steel gate that will allow me to shoot through but keep BG at a distance. Maybe get some kevlar curtains to frame it

I have also set up remote switched lights - three sets inside the house that can backlight the BG. I have one set that casts shadows against a doorway in a room where a person could seek concealment - about 30 feet from my firing position.

The whole home defense thing is predicated on being able to react fast enough to counter a threat. Home invasions are usually very fast - smash and dash. I don't think that I would want to clear a house on my own, at least not until I waited a while - those electronic ear protectors have a great advantage in that they amplify non-destructive sound.

Finally, the next weapon on my shopping list will be a AR style weapon - just waiting for a nasty piece of Clinton's legacy to die on Sep. 13th. Good weapons system with a lot of room for enhancement and making serious adjustments easily. Different ammo will do different things.

Last but not least, the closest of all the weapons is my Sig 239/40 - my first modern handgun. Great shooter.
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Old June 8, 2004, 07:26 PM   #57
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IMHO, THE #1 BURGLAR DETERRANT: Leave a t.v. or radio on when you leave your house or when you go to sleep. That really does make it seem like someone's home. Leave a light or two on as well. If your house is decently lit and sounds busy, a BG is much less likely to intrude unless he has violent intentions.

My little house in North Seattle has fairly good visibility from windows on two sides. If I can see who is on my property and can rationally assume they are unarmed, I will pack a loaded pistol and carry a mag-light and pepper spray to check them out.
I remember one incident when an old, drunk guy came up to my front door and asked if my house was the hospital. He needed to check in to the Betty Ford Clinic, but fast. I was tempted to pepper spray his sorry butt for being stupid, but I managed to resist the temptation and told him to get lost.

If I hear a noise on my property that happens to be somewhere out of my vision, I will pack a pistol and grab a longarm. Chances are it's someone sneaking around where they know they shouldn't be.

Of course, if I should actually hear a noise inside my house, I will grab the closest weapon to investigate. That's usually a pistol. Since I'm the one with the guns, my brother likes to have an axe handle or at least a golf club by each door, in case of rabid Jehovas Witnesses or a prank pizza delivery. I live on a fairly busy street and my neighborhood can be a little bit seedy sometimes, but it's not bad enough to constantly worry about having to shoot some tresspasser. Hey, I'm at least as paraniod as the next gun owner, but I do like to let my guard down sometimes. I would like to think I can solve most situations without resorting to the use of firearms, but I suppose one can't be too careful nowadays.
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Old June 8, 2004, 08:24 PM   #58
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Used to be shotgun.

Now, handgun (1911 with 10 round mags, to be exact)

Why? Because I decided that maneuvering around corners, bringing the weapon quickly into firing position, and retention of weapon (all weighing in favor of the handgun) were more important for home defense than unparalleled firepower and ability to buttstroke a BG (weighing in favor of the shotty). Going around corners with even a short (18" bbled) shotty, you're at a considerable disavantage for a moment until you can swing it around on target. For me, ideally, grab the handgun, sling the shotty over the shoulder for backup, and starting clearing rooms...
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Old June 8, 2004, 08:35 PM   #59
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I have four ranch-raised cowdogs that stay inside at night (can you say force multiplier?. By the time the land sharks get through with someone who tries to break in, I'll have time to reread this thread, and make a decision over a cup of coffee.

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Old June 8, 2004, 08:35 PM   #60
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Quote:
As far as I know, most home invaders in their right mind don't carry guns
Maybe in your part of the country... Not that I've heard of, but I'll assume you know your area...


I have a healthy respect for a 12 guage (it's my primary HD weapon), but some of you folks seem to have TOO much confidence in it.

I recommend to EVERYONE to read through all of John Farnam's Quips and Quotes. There is a lot of good information there on real gunfights, and the results. It might surprise some folks to learn that a solid hit with a 12 ga slug isn't a sure stop.

I'm not suggesting that the 12 isn't a good choice! But having realistic expectations is much better than living in a fantasy land where a blast from a 12 guage will throw a man across a room.


Some folks might also find that using double taps and triple taps isn't recommended practice for good reason. (But much better than shooting once and looking to see how the BG is doing!)


It's not the only good information available, of course, but it's there and it's free and it covers a lot of ground. Comes from multiple sources, too.
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Old June 10, 2004, 10:17 PM   #61
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I have said it, and I will say it again:

AR-15/M16

Even though the AR rifles pose a certain, uhm, reliability concern in sandy/dirty climates (like where I live ), in an urban environment this is minimal. No sand in an appartment building (hopefully),

The .223 caliber poses less overpenetration troubles than the most common handgun calibers due to the tendency of the round to destabilize in-flight.

Furthermore, the .223 rifle allows for bigger ammunition capacity (did I hear anybody whisper double C-mag ?) than the ordinary shotgun. Ditto for a rate-of-fire, where the .223 can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Moreove, the .223 rifle can be customized to death - an option available with shotguns too, but less so than with an AR-15/M-16 rifle.
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Old June 10, 2004, 10:22 PM   #62
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Quote:
The only time I have ever heard of a multitude of people breaking in a door and swarming a house is when SWAT does it, or it is a drug related gang thing.
I certainly have heard of such things. My favorite was this story:

A certain Arab couple in East Jerusalem filmed themselves having sex and sold the tapes to a compay. Eventually, some neighbour recognised them on tape. The rumour spread, and soon enough, a mob of East-Jerusalemites assembled to punish the infidel evildoers.

The police had to call in the Border Patrol (heavily armed paramilitary polce, they do more than protect the borders here) to protect those guys.

Now, tell me, did that couple need an AR or three?
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Old June 11, 2004, 06:14 AM   #63
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FirstFreedom & others: I agree about the handgun choice for indoor spaces. I'm thinking aobut getting myself a 1911, but I don't want to spend an arm and a leg on another pistol. Any suggestions for a reasonable & reliable .45ACP, 1911 style or otherwise? Anyone know anything about Rock Island Armory?

Quartus: Yeah, I know my area. It's hard for me to believe that most places in America are worse than Lake City in Seattle, Washington. Unless you live in Newark or something, you really don't have anything to fear but fear itself. Take my word for it, any BG who breaks into houses professionally isn't going to be armed, unless he's expecting trouble. And by the way, what's wrong with double taps and shotguns? It seems to me that if your twelve gauge slug can't stop a man dead in his tracks, you might as well throw your shotgun at him and light him up with hollow-point pistol rounds, or the AR you ingeniously attempt to disguise with a lampshade by your bedside. Then next time, try magnum slugs or triplotbukshot.

MicroBalrog: What the hell you talking about? Do you have a link to an article about that incident? I check the international news on a frequent basis for things like that and I'd love to read that story, if you have it.
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Old June 11, 2004, 06:21 AM   #64
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I do not have a link to an article, no.
(I wasn't reading the local papers back then), my Hebrew teacher told me about it when it happened (I was in the final grade of High School.

Many local events do not attract international attention, mind you.
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Old June 13, 2004, 07:46 AM   #65
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My always gun is a S&w 642 when wandering around the house. I keep a rem 870 cruiser ready with 5 00 buck shells in the tube, with 6 on the saddle, and 6 slugs on the buttcuff. That is my primary, fight my way to it, home defense arm. The j-frame is just to give me something to get to it. I also keep my ar15 ready to go inside the safe. That gets pulled out when the 870 is being cleaned, or for higher levels of trouble(Had a group of local hoodlums making some ruckus outside a few months back, and I pulled out the ar from the safe until the cops arrived).
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Old June 13, 2004, 11:38 AM   #66
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Quote:
Quartus: Yeah, I know my area. It's hard for me to believe that most places in America are worse than Lake City in Seattle, Washington. Unless you live in Newark or something, you really don't have anything to fear but fear itself. Take my word for it, any BG who breaks into houses professionally isn't going to be armed, unless he's expecting trouble.

Nice to live in such a peaceful area! Good for you! Many cities aren't that way. Most home invasion robberies are fast and include multiple armed intruders, and shooting the occupants is more common than not. At least in most big cities in America.


Quote:
And by the way, what's wrong with double taps and shotguns? It seems to me that if your twelve gauge slug can't stop a man dead in his tracks, you might as well throw your shotgun at him and light him up with hollow-point pistol rounds, or the AR you ingeniously attempt to disguise with a lampshade by your bedside. Then next time, try magnum slugs or triplotbukshot.
Or try learing from the pros, instead of Hollywood. Spend some time on that link I suggested, for example. Hey, it's FREE! Knowlegeable firearms instructors don't teach double tap or triple tap anymore, they teach shoot until the threat is stopped. The reason for that is that human beings have this nasty habit of not dropping like a sack of potatoes when shot, even though we all learned from TV that we should. The sad truth is that people who are shot very often continue to fight, and sometimes succeed in killing the person who shot them. Now, if you don't want to be the person who gets killed, it makes sense to learn from reality and do the things that maximize your chances of surviving. THere's nothing you can do to GUARANTEE your survival, but there are things you can do to better your chances. Shooting until the threat is stopped gives you a better chance than double taps.

Not living in a Hollywood world is the best thing you can do, of course.

Oh, and shotguns are great - I'm a big fan of them. But I know they aren't magic.
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Old June 14, 2004, 06:16 PM   #67
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Way fun thread to ponder on!

From my personal standpoint, I go with the handgun to start with. As a lot of people have mentioned earlier, the handgun is the most likely to be available in a moment's notice and it's the weapon we all practice with on a regular basis. When's the last time anyone here ran a combat course with their shottie? AR's are nice, but I don't own one, yet.

What do I prefer? Well, I'm going with a Top O' da Line Browning Hi Power in the venerable 9mm Luger. Why? Accuracy, capacity, reliability, maneuverability. It is soon to be stored in a Lou Alessi Bodyguard ShoHo, so I can grab it and move if necessary. Combine this with a good light like the Pelican M6/M6 LED, or the Surefire 6P/G2, and you have a good fighting chance. Penetration? That's definitely an issue in my world, but I have to compromise on everything.

What's my fallback? When it gets back from the shop, it will be my Colt 45 M1991. I keep this in my dutybelt with two spare mags and a Surefire 6P, so I can grab it and move if I need to, just like the BHP.

I would like to have a Vang Comp shotgun, and might head this route very soon as I think a man should have one of everything. But I have to look at what I am most familiar with and can move most easily with.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, or which I haven't seen, is the use of body armor. I have the vest and outer carrier from work and could easily see me donning this before moving to investigate. It might be outdated, but I'd rather be wearing a degraded IIIA vest when I'm shot than not. It sure can't hurt, right?!

I think it was Mas Ayoob that mentioned how convenient such a vest was because it allowed you to store fighting tools in the pockets and have protection. I'm shopping for another carrier that's more modular, but the pockets I do have hold a flashlight and a couple of Cylume sticks as well as some loaded magazines. You could also fill the pockets with some sheets of aluminum to increase the penetration resistance.

Just my thoughts.
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Old June 14, 2004, 10:52 PM   #68
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definitely shotgun.


-3phase
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Old June 15, 2004, 08:47 PM   #69
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Hmmm. I'm thinking old Art may have some competition for the Calvin Coolidge award.


New guy's first post and all he gives us is TWO WORDS!!





Welcome aboard, 3phase! New guy buys a round of ammo!


Is that 3phase, as in AC power?
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Old June 15, 2004, 10:14 PM   #70
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more words

Mossberg 500 12ga loaded with Fed. H132 4B. Backup is a 1991-A1
230 gr Speer GDHP. 1991 is also my carry piece.
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Old June 15, 2004, 11:36 PM   #71
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I started this thread 18 months ago, I can't believe it was resurrected. Boy do things change.

I took Gabe's Close Range Gunfighting course and then his Interactive Gunfighting class. (FOF) Since then I have rethought some things.

I will have to change my primary weapon back to my Glock 17. It is with me 90% of the time. It will be the gun I grab if I hear breaking glass at night. In most cases I would have to secure family members and the handgun would be the best tool to use in that case. JMO

If the family members are secured and I can take up a barricaded position, my wife would use the Mossberg 590A1 and I would go with my AR 15.
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Old June 16, 2004, 06:16 AM   #72
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It's amazing how taking that first real combat class will change your "learned all I know from shooting with buddies and reading gun rags, and maybe a few years in the Army" thinking, isn't it?
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Old June 16, 2004, 06:30 AM   #73
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ahhhhh.......

Colt Government model for the house. Colt LW Officer's model for the robe pocket. Colt CCO as duty and cary gun....by bed whilst sleeping. A ParaOrd LDA Companion and Kahr PM9 are Milady's tools. Mags for the 1911 collection are stashed in several places. I have a couple of rifles(M-N M44 and Ruger 10/22) that are not suitable for HD really, no AR's or AK's....not expecting a home invasion from the First Crackhead Battalion.
Reasons: Familiarity, simplicity, ones that I have. Distances are very close. The area is built up and heavily populated. I feel comfortable with my handguns...though I will add a semiauto centerfire rifle to the collectiom oneday....it is more for field than home, IMHO. If I lived way out in the stick's though, the rifle would be backed up by 1911's.
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Old June 16, 2004, 12:20 PM   #74
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Various 1911's, BHP's, P7's, and Makarovs scattered throughout the house. I think that shotguns and rifles have their place; but handguns are "handy"; which is their primary virtue. Long guns are not as maneuverable in tight places, and it is really hard to stick them in my bathrobe pocket.
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Old June 16, 2004, 01:39 PM   #75
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The first gun I would reach for would have to be my glock 22. After that,depending on the seriousness of the threat I would go to an m4(eotech sight,flat top,full length picatinny rails with tactical light and laser sight, silencer for inside work) carbine with a 2 30 round mags taped together....loaded with ballistic tip ammo so it will be sure to have explosive results. I have read all the posts about the lack of power of the 223 but honestly I don't know of any man that could take multiple hits at under 10 yrds from a 223 with an Expandible/fragmenting type bullet. And to those saying that the shotgun doesn't require that many hits...that's true, Hit someone with a load of anything under 10 yrds and yes, they will be dead. At that close the best thing to use would probably be bird shot.....really really ugly wound. To me though,I would rather have something I can make follow up shots on very quickly( eotech sight helps significantly)and has a larger capacity. They way I look at it is this....I'd rather have a loaded weapon than an empty one....and you will run out of ammo with the SG much faster than with the AR.
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