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Old November 18, 2002, 12:15 AM   #26
Sweatnbullets
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In one of my recent carbine courses the instructor was giving his opinion on what a devastating round the .223 was due to it's "fragmentation" traits. He was also saying that many of the SWAT and Special Operation Response Teams were going away from their MP5's and going to the M4's/.223 for house clearing operations.

I immediately began to question my choice of a primary home defense weapon, which was my 590A1. Since then I've been researching the subject and asking the opinions of the professionals.

I have come to the conclusion, as have many of the experts out there, that the AR15 platform is an outstanding choice as a primary home defense weapon. Due to the facts and information that are on this thread (and others) I have decided that.... For me, and my tactical situation the AR15/.223 is definitely the best choice as my primary home defense weapon.

I have been formally training with my rifle on a regular basis, but now I need to train with the knowledge that this is my "go to" gun.
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Old November 21, 2002, 12:25 AM   #27
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I see many have posted in favor of the 5.56mm AR type carbine. It is a nice ergonomical weapon. Handles very nice, it's reliable, but....How many of you have actually shot someone with one or even know someone who has experience doing so?

I know a cop who popped a guy with an AR this year and the results were not confidence inspiring! The target stood there until he bled out enough, passed out and then was cuffed...ten minutes after being shot! This was captured on the in-car video. No, he didn't hit center mass, but you think you will 100% in your underwear at 3:30am? I have heard stories from aquaintences' first hand accounts of 5.56 achieving less than spectacular close range results, not "stories" from second hand "brother's buddy's barber etc". A doctor I know from Singapore witnessed first hand; a guy in the Sing. military shoot himself to avoid further service...only he didn't shoot himself in the foot he leaned over the barrel and gut shot himself. Result: small hole in, small hole out. He lived and is paralized as the spine was hit. But no big energy dump! No huge internal damage. If he wasn't unlucky enough to hit his spine he'd be good as new today.

I am a big AR fan, I really do like the rifle and it has a purpose, but just not home defense. Shooting and wounding an enemy at 400meters is different than stopping some crackhead at your bedroom door.
Think about this; 5.56 hit to extremity...what happens? Not much usually. What about an arm or leg hit with 12ga 00 buck at household distances? You may think you can get center mass in a gun fight and your betting your life on that. But when the SHTF and the target and you are moving it's a whole new dynamic. You might be lucky to get an arm hit. EDIT (addition); I'm not implying here that it is easier to hit with a 12ga, just that 5.56 is not that great if you don't hit center mass, but 12ga has a greater ability to do damage without hitting center mass at close range. Sorry for not making that clear previously.
For close-in damage nothing within reason compares to the 12ga. Why do you think the Europeans wanted the good old American shotgun banned from trench warfare? These guys were used to seeing hits with 8mm Mauser and 30-06, yet considered the 12ga so devistating that it might be considered banned from warfare!!!

Wake up and look at real world events. Pet your AR, take it to the range, feed it well, but leave it in the safe when your front door gets kicked in.

Last edited by racegunner; November 22, 2002 at 12:46 AM.
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Old November 21, 2002, 09:32 AM   #28
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Racegunner Said:

I have heard stories from aquaintences' first hand accounts of 5.56 achieving less than spectacular close range results, not "stories" from second hand "brother's buddy's barber etc".

So your second hand stories should have more weight than someone else's second hand stories?

There are numerous stories of people being shot with 12g and not stopping their actions. If you can hold it and shoot it, it does not have stopping power. Stopping Power is a myth. A longarm is more likely to stop someone than a pistol, but neither are guarenteed. In the story of your friend shooting the bad guy with an AR and getting a marginal hit, would a marginal hit with a 12g have had different results? Probably not.

At home defense distances, a shotgun loaded with shot, is basically a .72 caliber rifle. It is quite easy to miss, if you believe that you just need to point the shotgun in his general direction and let fly a thundbolt of death (as some have described the 12g). And a shotgun, even with "Tactical Buck", has much greater recoil than an AR and the system will require more manipulation to keep it in the fight than an AR.
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Old November 21, 2002, 02:50 PM   #29
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Cut down to legal length J. Stevens 235 double-barrel 12 gauge. Telephone/cell phone is weapon #1 (if possible, let the cops deal with it), intimidation is weapon #2 (gotta love those twin railroad tunnels at the end of the thing), and having to pull the triggers is #3...
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Old November 22, 2002, 12:31 AM   #30
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Sorry Gomez, my point about first hand accounts is that I know the source of information and make my decisions based on real accounts of people I know were invovled in or witnessed shootings not read about in SWAT magazine. I'm not into arguing semantics, just firearms. So to you it's second hand..

It was also mentioned: "would a marginal hit with a 12g have had different results? Probably not. "
Wanna bet? a blast of 00 buck at 5 feet in the upper leg...are you kidding? the .223 went in and out without hitting bone or vein...I bet one of the nine buckshot would have a much better chance finding a target. It is possible the leg would have been removed. I've seen that happen with 7.62mm on a lower leg hit.

"It is quite easy to miss, if you believe that you just need to point the shotgun in his general direction..."
I am not an instructor, but I do quite well with my Benelli, 000 buck and slugs thanks.

If you can get through "Vom Krieg" then you can certainly re-read my previous thread without bias this time. I agree on your points that the AR handles better, I even came to that conclusion on my own. I like the carbine, there just isn't one I like to rely on for close defense...maybe the Hk SL7 in .308. I like my FAL carbine too.

and "a shotgun loaded with shot, is basically a .72 caliber rifle"
You got that right, sir! And an AR15 is basically a .22 if I am to apply that logic. I'll take the .72cal any day.

Now, outside running between cover and firing beyond 50 feet, I'll take an AR15, better yet an M4. I just feel it is better in most situations just not from the bed to the door...good not best.

Anyone else think I'm off the mark here?
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Old November 22, 2002, 10:02 AM   #31
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Somebody gets a solid COM shot with a .223 55 gr slug at close range and maybe it fragments and does a lot of damage and maybe not. Basically, you are hoping for the shotgun effect where one shot produces numerous wound channels and does a lot of tissue damage.

Somebody gets a solid COM shot with a 12 ga in 00 buckshot and there is no doubt that there is massive damage, multiple wound channels, etc.

Am I missing something here? My primary home defense weapon is a shotgun, but I just have a weapon. What is it I need to make is a primary home defense weapon SYSTEM and what benefits do a system offer over just a weapon?
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Old November 22, 2002, 12:13 PM   #32
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Remington 870.

20 barrell with rifle sights, wood furniture, tube extension, butt stock shell carrier. No other mods.
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Old November 22, 2002, 08:46 PM   #33
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Shotgun. I've got two dogs to take care of matters downstairs.
I don't plan on doing any "house clearing," so I'm committed to static defense defending the staircase/bedroom door. Cell phone by the bed, Surefire flashlight, wife with S&W 686, me with Mossberg. Come in the door or window, long gun goes "boom."
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Old November 22, 2002, 10:02 PM   #34
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Quote:
Posted by Cowdogpete

20 barrell with rifle sights...
!!!20 BARRELS!!!

Bet THAT'S a load of firepower...
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Old November 22, 2002, 11:16 PM   #35
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racegunner,
Well, it took 26 posts, but, we all knew it would start. Someone always has to force there opinion down everyone elses throats. The "my weapon is the best and my caliber is better than yours" argument is so old and worn out.

The question was what primary home defense weapon system do you prefer? Not which one you think we all should be using. For 26 post everyone else just said what they prefered and exchanged information, not "my ways the best way."

You have no idea what our tactical situation might be. Information like where you live, how big is your house, how many people live in your house, what are their locations, how close are your neighbors, do you have a dog, do you have one arm, are you going to barricade and call 911, do you have to secure non-combatant family members, or are you going to pull a Rambo and clear your house?

Since you do not know any of our pertinent information you have no clue why we would prefer one weapon system (I said it again!) over another. Maybe you could ask! Instead you see things from one point of view and assume that you know what's best for everyone else.

You may like to argue firearms, but, your arguing without a clue!


Did you read any of the suggested websights to try to understand why some people might be opting for the .223? It appears not.
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Last edited by Sweatnbullets; November 23, 2002 at 03:48 PM.
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Old November 23, 2002, 12:19 AM   #36
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Seeker_2

You DON'T want to pull the trigger on all twenty at once.

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Old November 23, 2002, 11:08 PM   #37
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This is an interesting thread. For home defense I have a system. First an foremost I try to find best neighborhood I could afford. Then get to know my neighbors, they have weapons are are great LP/OPs for me.
Then I have a little terrier mix, alert and loud. She wakes up the 120 lb back up dog, now he is loud and usually hungry. Then the home alarm with door/window chimes kick in. At that point wife is calling reinforcements (911). The 92G is with me always. If I have time grab the Mossberg 500 near the bed. OO Buck here we go (.72 caliber rifle or not that gun means GAME ON).

I would like to comment on one thing. Some folks have said the 12 guage pump is the best weapon for beginners. I do not know if that is true. Three gun matches never lie. I have often seen beginners shoot a pump. Racking the slide quickly for follow on shots can be tricky. I am sure others have seen it too, short stroking happens especially under pressure.
Nothing aginst the 12guage pump mind you. I just think it does require practice.

Someone had a thread once. The question was, you know that a matchete (ax, chainsaw, whatever) wielding maniac was coming through a door 10 ft away. What weapon would you want in your hands. I still think pump 12 guage is a very valid answer. I don't know if I would have the faith in my little bushie. That bullet is just so small. Anyway something to think about before you go to bed

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Old November 24, 2002, 12:57 AM   #38
Sweatnbullets
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Quote:
Am I missing something here? My primary home defense weapon is a shotgun, but I just have a weapon. What is it I need to make is a primary home defense weapon SYSTEM and what benefits do a system offer over just a weapon?
System: a group of elements that interact and function together as a whole.

Obviously, you did miss something.

Quote:
I'd probably add a Fobus/First Samco M33 handguard set, mount it sideways and attach a SureFire 6P, so I've got a whitelight source. And then, after my budget had recovered from buying the AR, I'd pick up a good optic. I'm partial to the Trijicon Reflex with the 12.5MOA triangle and, also, to the EO Tech HoloSight. After that, all's that left (on the equipment end) is a sling, spare mags and ammo.
Sounds like a weapon system to me, and I can definitly see what benefits this system offers over just a weapon. Don't you?
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Old November 24, 2002, 12:20 PM   #39
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Don't know about it being a system or anything, but my Remington 870 serves as my weapon of choice, followed by my SA Gov't 1911.
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Old November 25, 2002, 02:51 PM   #40
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The most important thing is mindset. Plan, prepare, and play.

Then, if something happens, throw out the plan (grin), and just do it.

My plan is call for help (if possible), attempt to convince the creep to vacate the premises (if possible), and the last resort is to have to clean my apartment.
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Old November 28, 2002, 11:20 AM   #41
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home def

After much thought and experimenting with guns and loads I have gone to the following for in the home weapons;

1.12ga. pump with "bb" shot, full bandolier hanging from the wall rack (weapon is put on a wall rack and returned to safe in morning). Tactical light is attached to mag tube.

2. .38 sp./3" barrell, first 3 chambers are shotshells, last 3 +P 158gr. wadcutters.

The .38 is primarily the wife's. The shotshells are as close to point and squeeze as you can find for the average size room. The pellets will most likely blind any attacker across the room and at closer distances an upper body hit will cause massive damage.
She and I have practiced with this gun and load for several years, and the pellet count on 20' and less targets is very good.
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Old December 8, 2002, 04:17 PM   #42
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I'dd prefer a .410 shotgun like the mossberg homedefender with a pistol grip if possible. I'dd also suggest a double action .38sp revolver.
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Old December 8, 2002, 08:20 PM   #43
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12 gauge 00 magnum Buck

Fire first ask questions of the corpse.

12 gauge 00 magnum Buck

Oh, my all new Winchester Defender in politically correct fluro-orange day-glow green.

I defy ANYONE to hold their "super-duper weapon system" of choice stand in the door way of my bedroom and try to return fire after I have nailed them with a "magic death dealing thunderbolt" from Winnie.

Regards,
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Old December 8, 2002, 09:02 PM   #44
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No kids in the house, just the little woman and myself. Bedroom has a reinforced oak door and turn bolt with a steel frame. Cell phone, Surefire Executive and a Gunvault with a S&W 686+ .357 and ammo make it likely no unwanted intruders will make it in before the LEOs arrive. If things get real bad the padlocked footlocker under the bed with the Maadi ARM AK and a few loaded mags will further deter entry. All the other firearms are in the safe.

Being in the burbs I don't have too many fears that once help is called it won't be too long before it arrives. Most B&Es will take off ASAP if they realize the cops are inbound. Home invasions with more nefarious intent (aka Wichita Massacre) are the primary concern for armed response. I've considered keeping a hidden small handgun (J Frame or Makarov) somewhere around the house as well I can get to quickly if needed.
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Old December 9, 2002, 03:37 AM   #45
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Shotgun is most effective in terms of terminal ballistics (overpenetration issues are easily resolved by different choices of ammo). It is also most reliable and easier for most people to use. That said, I think that if I had small children I would use a handgun. This is because if I had to move them from one area of the house to a safer area I could still operate the firearm fairly easily.

Jeff
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Old December 9, 2002, 10:44 AM   #46
CMichael
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HS >>12 gauge 00 magnum Buck

Oh, my all new Winchester Defender in politically correct fluro-orange day-glow green.

I defy ANYONE to hold their "super-duper weapon system" of choice stand in the door way of my bedroom and try to return fire after I have nailed them with a "magic death dealing thunderbolt" from Winnie.<<

Who says you will fire first? If you get it hit first with 3" #4 Turkey Load you ain't gonna fire anything again -- ever!

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Old December 9, 2002, 02:37 PM   #47
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First line of defense is a 25Lb Maine Coon cat that always likes to "play" with guests by pouncing from the fridge top. Goes by the name "Muishelovka"

Second: A big easily opened back door for us to haul butt out of. Call me a wuss, but there's nothing (breathing things excepted) in my house worth dying for.

After that: Mossberg 590 Defender loaded with Buck. Python with Glasers.

Room mates with guns and phones of their own.
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Old December 9, 2002, 02:53 PM   #48
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HD System?

Mindset,
Planning,
Low crime rate community,
Know thy neighbors,
Well lite exterior,
Locked windows and doors,
Dog,
High speed low drag tactical illumination device,
Cell phone,
12 Gauge with double ought buck,
Backup (wife) with revolver (.38+P Gold Dots).

Comforting.

Sleep Well.

-LeadPumper
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Old December 10, 2002, 06:13 AM   #49
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Benelli M3 semi-auto/pump-action 12ga. with slugshots.
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Old December 10, 2002, 08:57 AM   #50
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