SUGGESTIONS FOR a PRE-1890 SURPLUS RIFLE

[satx78247]

New Friends,

I'm seeking a surplus repeating rifle that was made before 1890, is over .40 caliber & was "originally designed" to be loaded with black powder.

The reason that I'm asking is that I've been invited on a hunt for Red Deer and Wild Boar in an Eastern European country next Fall, where only such antique firearms may be possessed & hunted with by NON-citizens.
(That country also allows flintlock or percussion firearms for hunting, provided that they are .50 caliber or larger bore BUT for hunting Russian Boar, I would prefer a quicker second shot, should I need one.)

Btw, as a retired soldier, I cannot easily afford a large-bore double rifle.

Your suggestions for such an antique bolt-action rifle are solicited & preferably from a member who shoots one for hunting big game.
(It would be good if the cases for the rifle could be formed from something simple to locate like .45-70 Government cases.)

THANKS.

yours, satx

[gyvel]

Your suggestions for such an antique bolt-action rifle are solicited & preferably from a member who shoots one for hunting big game.
(It would be good if the cases for the rifle could be formed from something simple to locate like .45-70 Government cases.)

Your more practical options are basically:

(1) 1871 Mauser 11mm (single shot BA).
(2) 71/84 Mauser 11mm (repeater).
(3) Gras 11mm (single shot).
(4) Remington-Lee 1879, 1882, 1885 .45-70 (repeater).

Some single shot NON-bolt actions:

(1) Martini Enfield .577/.450
(2) Peabody .45-70
(3) Springfield "trap door" .45-70.
(4) Sharps .50-70.
(5) Remington Rolling Block, several large calibres.

[mapsjanhere]

The problem is that of all of the guns described only those in 45-70 still have ammo available. I love my Mauser 71s, but ammo supply is nearly all dried up so you need to hand load.
A good trapdoor shooter could fire a round every 3-4 sec, and the 1884 model is considered pretty safe with appropriate smokeless rounds.

[T. O'Heir]

What's your budget?
"...repeating rifle that was made before 1890..." If it has to be original, you're looking at long dollars. Won't be 'surplus' either.
There are lots of reproductions of pre-1890 .45-70 lever actions around. Grand or more from Dixie Gunworks(not even close to the only game in town though. Henry's run a bit over $700 at Cabela's).
Mind you, .45-70 ammo may not be readily available in Eastern Europe. .45-70 isn't normally the base case for other cartridges either.
The 11mm Mauser is also known as .43 Mauser. Isn't cheap though. Graf's wants $64.99 per 20 for the brass alone.

[satx78247]

mapsjanhere,

What case are you reloading your ammo from??
(I presume that you're reforming the cases from something else.)

yours, satx

[satx78247]

T. O'heir,

Reproductions of antique rifles are NOT legal. - It has to be a black powder original, though using modern cases is lawful.

When I say "surplus", I mean a rifle that was once used by some armed force. - All the sporting arms that I can think of (like an original Sharps "buffalo rifle") are out of my price range.

I have about 1,000.oo for buying a rifle.

yours, satx

[satx78247]

To All,

I've seen a 5-shot rimfire 1870 Italian Vetterli in 10.4x45R converted to CF.
(Anybody have any experience one of those??)

yours, satx

[James K]

The Swiss Vetterlis can be converted to center fire, but the cartridge is of limited power and a change to a longer round is not possible.

IMHO, the best bet is the trapdoor in .45-70. There are a goodly number around that have been converted to sporters already, and they would seem to fit the requirements. Ammunition may not be available in Europe, but I assume you will be able to bring a reasonable amount of your own.

For a fast second shot, a repeater would be better, but the old trapdoor can be reloaded pretty fast with a bit of practice and by holding fresh rounds between the fingers or in a loading block attached to the foreend.

Jim

[dakota.potts]

When I first read your initial post, my initial thought was that a Vetterli meets (almost) all of your requirements. However, it would need to be converted to centerfire and you would need to either order or make your cartridges from something like .348 Win or 8mm Lebel. The biggest issue is that the cartridge is not inherently overly powerful - about a .44 magnum in power. I don't know if you've ever handled one, but they have a similar feel to a matchlock musket - that is, almost comically long.

[gyvel]

I've seen a 5-shot rimfire 1870 Italian Vetterli in 10.4x45R converted to CF.
(Anybody have any experience one of those??)

Yes, I have one, as well as all the ones I mentioned in my post, except the 1879 Remington-Lee.

The 10.4 mm Italian Vetterli and Vetterli-Vitali was never a rimfire; It was a centerfire, and I make my rounds out of .348 Winchester brass. It is of moderate power.

I think what you are thinking of is a Swiss Vetterli that fires a 10.4mm rimfire round. Those are sometimes converted to a centerfire version. It wasn't too many years ago that I remember seeing 10.4 Swiss ammo being sold off as surplus that was loaded as late as 1961; It might still possibly be found in Europe.

11mm Mauser rounds were loaded in Canada by Dominion and I could still buy it as late as the 80s. It's an easy round to reload. 11mm French Gras can be made out of .348 Win., but the case is a bit short.

If you can find an unaltered 1879, 1882 or 1885 Remington-Lee, your ammo problem is solved. They were all .45-70 and all three were used by the U.S. military. The 1885 is the most common and has the sturdiest extractor.

[satx78247]

To All,

I should have said that I'm a natural SOUTHPAW & a breechloading single shot may well be FINE for the job in .45-70, 11mm or in any number of other large-bore European chamberings. - I just want something faster to reload than my .58 caliber WBTS-era Remington "contract" rifled musket, in case that I should "fail to stop" a BIG boar in the close/dense brush.

Fwiw, I just found a "sporterized" .577-450 Enfield musket for sale for 650.oo in what the seller calls "excellent shooting condition" and a falling-block Danish Remington rolling-block musket in 11mm Mauser for 550.oo.

THANKS guy, for your wise input. = You've given me some ideas.

Btw, Russian Boar "take some killing". - I know an Army game warden who was "treed" on an Army truck by a Russian/feral cross boar of about 400#.
The hog "soaked up all 8 JHP .30.06 rounds out of an M1 Garand from 80-0 meters & finally "bled-out" while still trying to "get at" the game warden.
(That may well be the "exception to the rule" BUT if you are the target of a wounded Russian, it's darned little comfort that a .30-06 is supposed to be "perfectly good pig medicine". - That said, so far my "pet" Model 760 in .300 Savage has served me well in the South Texas brush, while dispatching any number of BBQ pigs.)

yours, satx

[gyvel]

and a falling-block Danish Remington rolling-block musket in 11mm Mauser for 550.oo.

Double check that Danish: If I recall, the cartridge is a 12mm affair that is fairly close to a 50-70, and some of them you can get away with shooting a 50-70 in.

[mapsjanhere]

satx,

I'm usually scouring gun shows for 1950's Old Dominion 43 Mauser. I typically get them for $3 or less, same price I have to pay for reformed brass.

[satx78247]

gyvel,

The current owner states that he's sure that it's an 11mm Mauser. - Fwiw, I would be pleased clear down to the ground if it is actually a 12mm/.50-70.

yours, satx