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Old November 20, 2005, 06:35 PM   #1
Bonstrosity
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Can I carry a baton?

I live in Minnesota and have looked around and can't seem to find anything on carrying an expandable baton (ie asp/winchester...). Does anyone have any information on this?

Joel
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Old November 20, 2005, 06:53 PM   #2
springmom
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try packing.org

That's a concealed carry database that has references to the law on carrying weapons in all 50 states.

Personally, I don't see the point. If I get a broken arm or shot in the shoulder, I might possibly be able to fire my gun (certainly with the other hand). But a baton????? Besides, there's that concealment issue.

"Hey there, big boy, is that a baton in your pocket or are ya just glad to see me?" (with apologies to Mae West)

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Old November 20, 2005, 07:21 PM   #3
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A collapsible baton, if legal to carry in your state and with the appropriate training, makes an excellent 'less-than-lethal' force option. There are many self-defense situations in which lethal force is the least preferred option by far. To think of some real-life situations that have happened to me, being assaulted by a frightened patient who was having a psychotic break, or being attacked by a dog while riding my bicycle. In both situations, lethal force would have been legally and morally incorrect. But having a 'less-than-lethal' force option allowed me to control the situation with minimal damage to myself or the life form at the other end of the baton.
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Old November 20, 2005, 09:19 PM   #4
Bonstrosity
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I looked through their Minnesota rules and can't find a thing about anything besides a firearm.
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Old November 20, 2005, 09:25 PM   #5
MillCreek
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Look to see if there is anything about a 'club', 'bludgeon' or 'blackjack'. Some states define a baton using those terms.

PS: Although I profess no expertise in Minnesota law, I note that 609.66 (1) (5) specifies 'any other dangerous article or substance for the purpose of being unlawfully used as a weapon against another'. I wonder if that is the catch-all statute that could be used to interpret against a collapsible baton. I think your answer is not going to be found in the statutes, but rather the Minnesota case law regarding the definition of a 'dangerous weapon'. You might want to do a search in the case law using terms like 'club', 'bludgeon', 'baton', 'nightstick' or the like.
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Old November 20, 2005, 09:58 PM   #6
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Talk to an attorney or post this in the legal section. Those folks are very sharp.
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Old November 20, 2005, 10:10 PM   #7
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here is the link to your state law regarding CW;

http://www.packing.org/state/minnesota/

Like everyone else said, so far from what I read it is not too clear (unlike where I live in PA, carrying a concealed Baton or blackjack is a no,no). There seems to be a mention about electrical and chemical weapons. Stun Guns and Pepper spray may be out. I used to carry a spring baton in my backpack when I went to night classes. Problem is they are heavy and hard to carry in your pocket (Springmom has a point, good news is you will get more dates). If you know what you are doing with them ( there are a few baton fighting manuals out there) they are good less than lethal weapons.
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Old November 22, 2005, 09:30 PM   #8
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If you deploy your baton, black jack, whatever, you give someone an execuse to shoot you dead/dead. Ditto with a knife, I can't imagine anyone dumb enough to pull out a knife in a confrontation. Courts(and society in general) view knife wielders as thugs. If you pull out a knife you will have a very hard time convincing anyone that you're not the bad guy.

Once, when off duty, I almost shot the victim of a simple assault. He picked up a pair of garden shears and was waving them at his assailant. Not knowing what had transpired, I ordered him to lay them down and for both to back away. The poor guy holding the shears turned and advanced two steps toward me. when it finally registered on him that I had a badge in my left hand and a gun in my right hand, pointed at him, he threw down the shears and ran as hard as he could.

Before anyone could engage me in conversation or get a badge number, I ran the other direction as hard as I could. There were several lessions to be learned in this situation. It took me a few years before I figured most of them out.

The most important however is learning that there are two sets of laws. One is the statutes that everyone has been citing in the thread and the other set of laws is case law. Before you rely on a written stature, better find out how courts have ruled.

By way of example, I cite the statute in a particular jurisdiction that defines concealed carry of a fireare. Reading that stature and relying on it could cost you some jail time, because a judge in that jurisdiction ruled that carrying a firearm in "open and notorious" fashion fell within his own personal interpetation of the concealed statute. This was fifty years ago, and folks are still getting locked up and charged with Class 1 Misdemeanors by relying on the literal wording of that stature. When a judge rules, other judges of the same level are bound by precedent.

Learn the case law. Better yet cultivate a couple of cops and learn what they are locking folks up for. Cops usually won't arrest anyone unless they think they can get a conviction.
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Old November 22, 2005, 11:22 PM   #9
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I'm pretty sure that impact weapons are covered under the CCW laws of Florida, and probably other states as well. The license that allows you to carry a gun also allows you to carry concealed knives, clubs, etc. without them being considered "illegal concealed weapons."

I have an ASP, and a can of pepper spray. I've never had to use either of them (or my gun, for that matter), but I really would worry that if a person attacked me but didn't merit using a gun on them, that using the baton would make me look really really bad. I mean, if the threat didn't rise to using a gun, that pretty much axiomatically means the attacker didn't have a gun of his own -- so now you're seen "beating an unarmed man with a metal baton." People, notably the authorities, would probably think you were using more force than necessary, even though only you and he know the real story.

Why does it always seem that we who would defend are always the ones who have to be so circumspect? Gotta cover all the bases, know all the legal ins and outs... So much burden on US, when we're the good guys!


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Old November 23, 2005, 03:28 AM   #10
Bonstrosity
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Maybe I'll just get a can of OC spray. The baton seems like it could get me in some trouble. If all of a sudden I pull out an asp and i turn from the victim to a full fledge attacker w/in 2 sec.

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Old November 24, 2005, 11:49 AM   #11
paradoxbox
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Don't be fooled into thinking an ASP baton is 'less than lethal'. Anyone who thinks this has never been hit by one. A hard hit by an ASP baton to the right area will split arteries and put a BG out in seconds. The kinetic force generated by the tip of the batton is extremely high.

If you strike someone to the face or side of the head with it they'll be very lucky to come out of that situation walking.

An important thing with collapsable batons is to get proper training. I wouldn't recommend police baton training as in reality it's not that effective and it's designed as a precursor to drawing guns. I would suggest you go to a good martial arts instructor that teaches jojutsu or hanbojutsu (Japanese stick fighting arts) jor kali / escrima (Philipino stick / knife fighting arts) and train with them for a while.

Personally I carry a non collapsable baton at all times called a jitte, which was an old police tool in Japan. The mobility of it sucks but I don't trust an ASP baton to withstand grappling pressures (Which is something you will learn about if you go the Japanese route).

I would suggest not carrying one unless you get trained in its proper usage, however.
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Old November 24, 2005, 11:59 AM   #12
MillCreek
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Speaking as someone who has trained with, carried and been struck by an ASP baton, the previous poster is correct that it can be lethal if used improperly. As an example, you are trained to avoid strikes to the head, spine, face or neck insofar as those areas risk death or permanent disabling injury. An ASP, or any baton is best used for joint strikes or other strikes designed to disable, get the person to drop the weapon, or to otherwise comply with your commands.

'Less than lethal' is now the preferred term to 'non-lethal'. There used to be several technologies marketed as 'non-lethal' that did indeed result in death, either through accident or deliberate misuse. In my opinion, any of the 'less than lethal' methods can in fact be lethal, which is why proper training is so important.
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Old January 25, 2006, 08:19 PM   #13
Hollywood695
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Asp

As far as the "less than lethal" views on the ASP, as MillCreek states, they can in fact, be quite lethal. My stepfather is a LEO certified to train ASP classes, and users are commonly taught to strike the same areas pressure-point attacks would be carried out. Any other areas (eg, spine, head) can in fact cause permanent maiming and/or death.
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Old January 25, 2006, 08:36 PM   #14
rallyhound
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Bonstro-- I asked that very question to a hennepin county deputy about a year ago. For what its worth, his feeling was that the Minnesota CCW is for a gun and will not provide legal protection if you are arrested carrying other types of weapons.
That being said, I have at times carried a colapsible baton. Just one more option should the need arise. Some people may need a thumpin but not necessarily a bullet.
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Old October 1, 2010, 05:53 PM   #15
SirSpork
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In reference to MillCreek's response and others' requests regarding the legality of carrying a collapsible baton in Washington state:

Today I called the Washington State Patrol office in Olympia and consulted with a trooper regarding this issue. Together we both reviewed RCW (Revised Code of Washington) 9.41.270 and it is as such:

Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.


It should be noted that this law excludes civilians in general from carrying a collapsible baton as it is regarded as a lethal weapon and punishable as a gross misdemeanor; furthermore, if the violator is a holder of a Concealed Pistol License, said license will be revoked by law enforcement personnel upon arrest. Thus, carrying a collapsible baton is not covered under said Concealed Pistol License. The only time said weapon is allowed for carry, presentation and/or use is in one's domicile or fixed place of business (store building only; vehicles not included), and presentation and/or use within the home or fixed place of business must be consistent with the intent to preserve the safety of one's self or another if the perpetrator presents any form of weapon with intent to attack and/or cause bodily harm. Any other presentation or use is a gross misdemeanor.

Hopefully this lays the matter to rest. As disappointed as I am on the fact (I recently purchased a collapsible baton), the law's the law. I imagine there could be an initiative drafted to make carrying a collapsible baton legal by virtue of permit, but finding the necessary 6-digit signatures is another matter altogether. Any ideas?
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Old October 1, 2010, 07:46 PM   #16
Nnobby45
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Quote:
Maybe I'll just get a can of OC spray. The baton seems like it could get me in some trouble. If all of a sudden I pull out an asp and i turn from the victim to a full fledge attacker w/in 2 sec.
Isn't that one of SD's basic principles regardless of your weapon---WHEN IT BECOMES NECESSARY, going from victim to attacker in an instant (preferably sooner than two seconds)?
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Old March 6, 2011, 10:24 PM   #17
DougNew
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I hate to resurrect an old thread, but this ends on incomplete information that doesn't help clarify a murky area.

Thanks to Sir Spork for posting RCW 9.41.270, above. But that statute doesn't prohibit the carry of batons in Washington state. The relevant part

Quote:
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
is a "no brandishing law." It says, removing redundancy, "It shall be unlawful to carry a knife or other weapon in a manner that intimidates another."

It doesn't say that it's unlawful to carry a knife. It isn't. It's unlawful to intimidate someone with it.

Sure, a baton counts as "other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm," and it would therefore be illegal to intimidate anyone with one. But this section doesn't make it illegal to carry one, any more than it makes it illegal to carry a knife.
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Old March 8, 2011, 05:52 AM   #18
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If you deploy your baton, black jack, whatever, you give someone an execuse to shoot you dead/dead.
Yep, that sums it up. In the eyes of the law, it's a lethal weapon, just as lethal as a knife, gun, or crossbow...

Unless you cannot legally own/carry a gun, I see no reason to hamstring yourself to a less effective lethal tool that requires you to engage in hand to hand combat...
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