Long Range: Practical Shooting vs. F Class

Unlicensed Dremel · June 6, 2014, 09:01 AM

I don't compete but from what I've been reading, it seems like in the last couple/few years, the practical shooters have gravitated toward the 6mms (with a smattering of 6.5s), whereas the F Class shooters have gravitated toward the 6.5s (with a smattering of 7mms, 6mm, & others) - excluding F/TR of course.

My questions are....
--is this accurate?
--if so, why would this be, since the distances are roughly the same? Is it because there are more shots to a match in practical shoots and thus recoil is more of a factor? F class guns heavier and thus less recoil? Or are 6mm chamberings just every bit as good in the wind to 1K, as a 6.5mm?

Just curious.

rkittine · October 9, 2014, 08:35 AM

I have also read that most competition shooters are shooting (non-military) primarily 6mm followed by 6.5 and then a few 7mm.

I do not hunt and do not shoot in competition, but would like to get back into long range shooting. I have not had a long range rifle since the mid 80s. At that time I shot a Remington Heavy Barrel BDL Varmint in 22-250 and a Mauser 4000 in 7mm Rem Magnum.

I now am a lot older, so I am not sure what recoil will do to me, but I just bought a Remington 700 VLS Heavy 26" Barrel Varminter with Laminated Stock in 22-250 that I will use out to 250 yards and I want to buy something now that will get me out to at least 500 - 600 and hopefully to 1000.

The only other caliber that the VLS comes in with the long barrel that might fit the bill is the .243, but I have always found that a boring round.

Since I will not be shooting in competition, and since I would like another style rifle, I was thinking of getting a Remington 700 CDL in .25-06. That is only a 24" barrel. It is also available in .270 and 7mm Rem Mag, but I think at this point in my life I want to stay away from magnums.

Would be nice to build up a supply of brass before I start loading so I have ruled out building a rifle in one of the exotics for the time being.

Any advise would be appreciated.

Good Shooting, Bob

Bart B. · October 9, 2014, 10:26 AM

Recoil is the significant factor in what cartridge is used for accurate shooting with hand held rifles against ones shoulder.

Popular cartridges used in long range competition fired from rifles held to one's shoulders tend to wear out barrels pretty fast. For example, a favorite is the 6.5x.284 which has less than 1000 rounds of accurate barrel life as does the .22-.250. But it's mild recoil makes it easy to shoot more accurate than the 28 and 30 caliber magnums that were popular before it became a favorite in prone fired matches back in the 1990's.

In good conditions, a .308 Winchester will do just as well with 3 times the barrel life. And it can be used in all types of long range competition with bolt action rifles, including Palma matches that are restricted to the .308 Winchester.

The only commercially available rifles suitable for such use are the target versions made by Savage. I don't think any other makes offer rifles that shoot as accurate as the Savage line has.

Benchrest rifles fired in free recoil do well with the big 30 caliber magnum cartridges. They're not hand held and are virtually untouched by the shooter except by a finger tip in their 2 ounce trigger. And they weigh 25 pounds or a lot more, too.

g.willikers · October 9, 2014, 10:34 AM

I've been thinking of playing around with a fairly long range rifle, too.
Not for anything organized, either, just for fun and something to accomplish.
What about the .223?
It and the similar .222 versions were always thought of as longer range varmint rounds.
Not as powerful as the others mentioned, but does it have to be?
There's more to being an accurate rifle shootist than velocity.

Bart B. · October 9, 2014, 10:40 AM

The US Army Marksmanship Unit finally gave up on the .223/5.56 cartridge for long range service rifle competition. Folks shooting Garands and M1A rifles chambered for the .308/7.62 rounds typically out scored them and they had no M14NM's in stock worthy of being used. So they convinced the NRA to allow AR10's in .308 Win. to be used. Set a 1000-yard service rifle team record with them their first time at the 2012 Nationals.

Jim Watson · October 9, 2014, 11:36 AM

What do you mean by "fairly long range?" G?

When Bart says long range he probably means Long Range which is NRA speak for 800-1000 yards.

Internet "fairly long range" is usually what a target shooter would call Midrange, 200-600 yards. A GOOD .223 can handle that, as witness all the NM ARs.

g.willikers · October 9, 2014, 04:29 PM

Since we seem to be talking about casual shooting, rather than competition or training, distances suitable for the caliber that is chosen should provide plenty of challenge.
Which is why .223 could be a good choice to learn with.
Easy recoil, plenty of inexpensive ammo in a wide variety.
Being able to hit up to the 600 yard mentioned would keep me busy for a long time.

rkittine · October 9, 2014, 06:00 PM

I did have a VERY heavy bench rest rifle for a while in 7mm Ackley Improved. Though I do not hunt, I want to be able to bring the rifle to the range without a porter or wheels on the case!

Bob

4runnerman · October 9, 2014, 08:00 PM

In the matches I go to. ( F Class ). The 6mm is still around ,but not as much as one would think. The 6.5 and 30 BRX are really starting to shine. I still shoot the 6mmbr,but am really tempted to get into the 30 brx. I don't believe the 6.5 or 30 are any more accurate,just buck the wind better.

Slamfire · October 17, 2014, 01:37 PM

Quote:

The US Army Marksmanship Unit finally gave up on the .223/5.56 cartridge for long range service rifle competition. Folks shooting Garands and M1A rifles chambered for the .308/7.62 rounds typically out scored them and they had no M14NM's in stock worthy of being used. So they convinced the NRA to allow AR10's in .308 Win. to be used. Set a 1000-yard service rifle team record with them their first time at the 2012 Nationals.

This is a better and more realistic explanation than the reasoning given by Dennis Demille after he and the board voted the AR10 a "service rifle". He was on the voting board, I read his reasoning on one web site, and his explanation seemed very spurious. So the vote was really to help his Service Buds get back the trophies, I can believe that.

rkittine · October 19, 2014, 08:29 AM

Now having talked to over 6 custom bench rest rifle builders, I think I am going to have some work done on my Remington 700 VLS in .22-250 (bedding, trigger, tuning etc.) and build up some experience until I shoot out the barrel and then have it rebarreled in 6.5x47, which they are claiming will give better Long Range accuracy (out to 1,000 yards) than the 6mm BR with better barrel life then the 6mm Dasher or the 6.5x284.

Bob

June 6, 2014, 09:01 AM	#1
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Long Range: Practical Shooting vs. F Class I don't compete but from what I've been reading, it seems like in the last couple/few years, the practical shooters have gravitated toward the 6mms (with a smattering of 6.5s), whereas the F Class shooters have gravitated toward the 6.5s (with a smattering of 7mms, 6mm, & others) - excluding F/TR of course. My questions are.... --is this accurate? --if so, why would this be, since the distances are roughly the same? Is it because there are more shots to a match in practical shoots and thus recoil is more of a factor? F class guns heavier and thus less recoil? Or are 6mm chamberings just every bit as good in the wind to 1K, as a 6.5mm? Just curious.

October 9, 2014, 08:35 AM	#2
rkittine Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2014 Location: Manhattan & Sag Harbor, N.Y. Posts: 106	Next Long Range Rifle I have also read that most competition shooters are shooting (non-military) primarily 6mm followed by 6.5 and then a few 7mm. I do not hunt and do not shoot in competition, but would like to get back into long range shooting. I have not had a long range rifle since the mid 80s. At that time I shot a Remington Heavy Barrel BDL Varmint in 22-250 and a Mauser 4000 in 7mm Rem Magnum. I now am a lot older, so I am not sure what recoil will do to me, but I just bought a Remington 700 VLS Heavy 26" Barrel Varminter with Laminated Stock in 22-250 that I will use out to 250 yards and I want to buy something now that will get me out to at least 500 - 600 and hopefully to 1000. The only other caliber that the VLS comes in with the long barrel that might fit the bill is the .243, but I have always found that a boring round. Since I will not be shooting in competition, and since I would like another style rifle, I was thinking of getting a Remington 700 CDL in .25-06. That is only a 24" barrel. It is also available in .270 and 7mm Rem Mag, but I think at this point in my life I want to stay away from magnums. Would be nice to build up a supply of brass before I start loading so I have ruled out building a rifle in one of the exotics for the time being. Any advise would be appreciated. Good Shooting, Bob

October 9, 2014, 10:34 AM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	I've been thinking of playing around with a fairly long range rifle, too. Not for anything organized, either, just for fun and something to accomplish. What about the .223? It and the similar .222 versions were always thought of as longer range varmint rounds. Not as powerful as the others mentioned, but does it have to be? There's more to being an accurate rifle shootist than velocity. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

October 9, 2014, 04:29 PM	#7
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Since we seem to be talking about casual shooting, rather than competition or training, distances suitable for the caliber that is chosen should provide plenty of challenge. Which is why .223 could be a good choice to learn with. Easy recoil, plenty of inexpensive ammo in a wide variety. Being able to hit up to the 600 yard mentioned would keep me busy for a long time. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

October 9, 2014, 06:00 PM	#8
rkittine Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2014 Location: Manhattan & Sag Harbor, N.Y. Posts: 106	Practical Long Range Shooting I did have a VERY heavy bench rest rifle for a while in 7mm Ackley Improved. Though I do not hunt, I want to be able to bring the rifle to the range without a porter or wheels on the case! Bob __________________ Robert Kittine Manhattan & Sag Harbor, N.Y.

October 9, 2014, 10:26 AM	#3
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Recoil is the significant factor in what cartridge is used for accurate shooting with hand held rifles against ones shoulder. Popular cartridges used in long range competition fired from rifles held to one's shoulders tend to wear out barrels pretty fast. For example, a favorite is the 6.5x.284 which has less than 1000 rounds of accurate barrel life as does the .22-.250. But it's mild recoil makes it easy to shoot more accurate than the 28 and 30 caliber magnums that were popular before it became a favorite in prone fired matches back in the 1990's. In good conditions, a .308 Winchester will do just as well with 3 times the barrel life. And it can be used in all types of long range competition with bolt action rifles, including Palma matches that are restricted to the .308 Winchester. The only commercially available rifles suitable for such use are the target versions made by Savage. I don't think any other makes offer rifles that shoot as accurate as the Savage line has. Benchrest rifles fired in free recoil do well with the big 30 caliber magnum cartridges. They're not hand held and are virtually untouched by the shooter except by a finger tip in their 2 ounce trigger. And they weigh 25 pounds or a lot more, too.

October 9, 2014, 10:40 AM	#5
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	The US Army Marksmanship Unit finally gave up on the .223/5.56 cartridge for long range service rifle competition. Folks shooting Garands and M1A rifles chambered for the .308/7.62 rounds typically out scored them and they had no M14NM's in stock worthy of being used. So they convinced the NRA to allow AR10's in .308 Win. to be used. Set a 1000-yard service rifle team record with them their first time at the 2012 Nationals.

October 9, 2014, 11:36 AM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	What do you mean by "fairly long range?" G? When Bart says long range he probably means Long Range which is NRA speak for 800-1000 yards. Internet "fairly long range" is usually what a target shooter would call Midrange, 200-600 yards. A GOOD .223 can handle that, as witness all the NM ARs.

October 9, 2014, 08:00 PM	#9
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	In the matches I go to. ( F Class ). The 6mm is still around ,but not as much as one would think. The 6.5 and 30 BRX are really starting to shine. I still shoot the 6mmbr,but am really tempted to get into the 30 brx. I don't believe the 6.5 or 30 are any more accurate,just buck the wind better. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

October 19, 2014, 08:29 AM	#11
rkittine Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2014 Location: Manhattan & Sag Harbor, N.Y. Posts: 106	Long Range Shooting Now having talked to over 6 custom bench rest rifle builders, I think I am going to have some work done on my Remington 700 VLS in .22-250 (bedding, trigger, tuning etc.) and build up some experience until I shoot out the barrel and then have it rebarreled in 6.5x47, which they are claiming will give better Long Range accuracy (out to 1,000 yards) than the 6mm BR with better barrel life then the 6mm Dasher or the 6.5x284. Bob __________________ Robert Kittine Manhattan & Sag Harbor, N.Y.