May 3, 2005, 12:57 PM | #1 |
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sabot rounds
I'm not sure where to post this thread but I have a question about sabot rounds, especially tungsten and DU sabots
Does anyone know how thes work? And what kind of uranium does the the DU use? Any help and answer is appreciated. Max
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May 3, 2005, 04:04 PM | #2 |
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Depleted uranium rounds are basically chunks of uranium from which as much of the U-235 has been processed out as possible.
Interesting aspect of amorphous crystalline metals: they're harder and more brittle than normal, and this means that on impact, they are self-sharpening. Impact stresses cause outer layers to just kind of flake off, progressively sharpening the projectile until it either goes through or shatters. |
May 3, 2005, 04:46 PM | #3 |
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Are you saying the depleted Uranium is an amorphous metal or the Tungsten?
Either way, interesting. |
May 3, 2005, 06:09 PM | #4 |
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Depleted uranium is just uranium with low uranium-235 content. (235 is the main fissionable material in reactors and nuclear weapons.)
Many (most?) metals can be formed with an amorphous crystal structure; uranium is one of them. Because of its unique mechanical properties, an amorphous structure makes for better terminal effects on hard targets. As for tungsten penetrators, they're just tungsten spikes; AFAIK, nothing fancy is done with them, aside from maybe alloying for enhanced hardness. |
May 3, 2005, 11:32 PM | #5 |
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Another interesting tidbit, Depleted uranium is about as dangerous as lead. (As long as you don't eat/breath it, you're fine.) It is LESS radioactive than plain uranium ore because, Duh, most of the U-235 has been extracted. Don't let the media tell you otherwise.
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May 4, 2005, 06:06 AM | #6 | |
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Quote:
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May 4, 2005, 08:23 AM | #7 |
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thanks this what I wanted to know.
Any other info on tungsten sabots(or other types of sabots)?
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May 4, 2005, 09:14 AM | #8 |
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sabot and AP
Hardened penetrators such as tungsten or DU and sabot rounds are 2 different things. However, they are commonly used together. A good example of this is the .50 SLAP (saboted light armor penetrator) for the M2. This is a .30 cal tungsten penetrator in a .50 cal plastic sabot. You get 2 benefits from the tungsten penetrator - reduced mass (equals higher velocity-around 4000 fps for the SLAP vs. 2900 fps for a .50 BMG), and harder bullet that penetrates rather than deforms. This gives you a round effective against 3/4" armor out to around 5000 feet.
Incidentally, in the 80s the Marines looked at the same concept for a 7.62 rounds. Didn't work out so well, the sabot would often break up and the penetrator would go through the side of the barrel. Oops. |
May 4, 2005, 09:35 AM | #9 | |
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^^^
Well, he was asking about the sabot rounds used in tank cannons for anti-tank purposes: and specifically asked about DU.
Quote:
Note that with a density of about 19g/cm^3, DU isn't exactly a smart choice for typical hand weapons; you'd get a penetrating core that would go straight through a bunch of stuff, but wouldn't actually do very much damage. Tungsten's actually slightly more dense, at 19.3g/cm^3, so it would have the same problem. It would be a lot cheaper and a lot less illegal, though. In either case, even if you got the raw materials, good luck actually making bullets. Uranium and tungsten are both very hard to work. Note: I'm saying this stuff from the standpoint of an engineering student; media hype becomes a lot less scary when you know more about the chemistry and mechanics than the f***tard reporters. |
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May 4, 2005, 10:47 AM | #10 |
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in the beginnig of the thread. Since Iknow DU I was asking about rifle sabot rounds.
I know that there are a Very few rifles that uses DU(or these are not comercial)or there aren't any, but those are 20mm anti-vechicle weapons. I if they say a 7.62 sabot round(often tungsten) is the bullet really 7.62 or smaller? (Like Mike40-11 said)
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May 4, 2005, 11:21 AM | #11 |
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some years ago ,remintong made some sabot round catridges.They was made with a 223 ball mount on 0,30 sabot.tha caliber was 30 06,308 and 30 30...now remintong made only the sabot for reolanding but stop made the complete ammo...
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May 4, 2005, 11:27 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
Go to any gem & mineral show, you can pick up uranium ore for a reasonable sum. |
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May 4, 2005, 11:40 AM | #13 |
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DU is also pyrophoric. The energy at impact creates enough heat to cause the metal to burn. Any material that penetrates appears as a shower of flaming metal.
The radioactivity is not a hazard (alpha emitter) as long as it stays outside the body. Alphas cannot even penetrate skin. If the material is inside the body the alpha can now do damage. This is the reason fro the risk in inhaling the dust. DU is a toxic (chemically) heavy metal. Just like lead, it can cause problems by screwing around with any number of metabolic paths and nerve function. I happen to have a DU penetrator sitting on my desk. Not a hazard. |
May 4, 2005, 12:12 PM | #14 |
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Any sabot round will be smaller than the bore of the weapon. That's the whole rationale for sabots. Smaller bullet, bigger gun, higher speed.
Remington used to make a cartridge called the Accelerator, discontinued in he late 90s, that was a 55 gr. 22 cal bullet in a 30 cal sabot. I believe they made it in 30-30, .308 and 30-06. Don't know if any one else is making production rifle sabot rounds now, but you can find the sabots for sale for handloading. Currently lots of manufacturers make 12 ga sabot shotgun slugs. This are generally 1 oz. .50 cal slugs in a plastic sabot to fit the .729" 12 ga bore. They are also common in muzzleloading. .45 cal bullets in a .50 cal plastic sabot. |
May 4, 2005, 12:18 PM | #15 |
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and what can you say about ss 109 sabot round?
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May 4, 2005, 03:15 PM | #16 |
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There are also saboted rounds for pistols out there as well.
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May 5, 2005, 08:14 AM | #17 |
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And does a DU round explode when impacts on a target? I know that tungsten doesn't.
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May 5, 2005, 08:45 AM | #18 |
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^^^
No, but it does scatter lots of little incandescent flakes of itself as it grinds through whatever it hits.
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May 5, 2005, 09:27 AM | #19 |
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http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/DU-Rad...-WHO5nov01.htm
...uranium is a dense and hard metal that is pyrophoric. It is these properties that give the effectiveness at penetrating armour and destroying tanks and their occupants. On burning, uranium produces a dense smoke, which, in a confined space, is rapidly suffocating. |
May 5, 2005, 10:55 AM | #20 |
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but when a "Silver Bullet" hits a tank it blows up. If not because of the DU than what explodes?
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May 5, 2005, 11:18 AM | #21 |
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the tanks blow up when it by a penetrator because the hig temperature generate by the shot blow the ammo storage in the tank,the ammo are generally stowed around the tank's turret...because this the modern west tank are tha ammo storage in the rear compartement of the turret ,so in case of hit the ammo blow up off the turret and not in the turret...nobody rest in a tank hit died by suffocating,simple because is died before by the fire...
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May 5, 2005, 11:34 AM | #22 |
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so you say if a m829 DU round hits the tank or it's armor anywhere, the tank will be destroyed and everyone inside too?
and is there any other explosive in a DU round?
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May 5, 2005, 01:45 PM | #23 |
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The DU penetrator is a solid chunk of metal (35.2 mm diameter) with 6 non-DU fins (96.5 mm tip to tip and 101.5 mm tall at body) and a phosphorous 'tail light' so it can be observed going down range night or day.
There are set back grooves circumferentially around the body for most of the portion in the sabot and a hardened tip about 18mm long (handling protection more than anything else). The dimensions are off the one on my desk. It does not need any explosive. The DU enters the interior of the target as a spray if molten burning metal. It can set off explosives in the immediate vicinity and cause the powder in shells to cook off. In the confined volume of a tank the pressure/flame/blast kill very nicely. Aberdeen proving grounds has foreign equipment that has been captured after battle. On many of the units the only indication on the exterior is the small hole the DU penetrator made. I have seen some of the interiors (most are closed off from the general public) and the interior destruction can be pretty devastating even though the outside of the unit looks normal (except that small hole). |
May 5, 2005, 01:49 PM | #24 | |
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May 6, 2005, 04:12 AM | #25 |
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so no explosive is required because when the DU enter the tank it will cause high temperature and sprays molten metal inside the tank, right?
And one last thing about tungsten(rifle caliber). If it hits a human body (with or w/o body armor) it goes through the target and not deforms or just a litte. Am I right?
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