Suppressed Short Range “Sniper” Rifle (VSS Vintorez)

[stonewall50]

I am a bit of a fan of espionage stuff. Spy movies, books, and that kind of thing. I like the real stuff. Not as big into the fake stuff. Loved Spy Game and read the book by the KGB guy who flipped Aldrich Aimes and Robert Hansen. Well. I had a discussion with a friend about this stuff and about the special spy gadgets and we naturally guns came up. And I pointed out that the Russians invented their own little assassin rifle in the VSS Vintorez.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSS_Vintorez

In case you don’t know what it is I have the link. So why is it the “assassin’s rifle?” Well it is broken down quickly and is suppressed with a max effective range of roughly 400m. And it is issued to the Spetznaz and the round is a necked down 7.62x39mm rifle round. And? Subsonic. But still maintains the oomf that is needed inside the “effective range.” So this is a crazy concept rifle and very interesting as a weapon. You can always count on the Russians to find odd solutions to odd problems.

But what I find interesting is that I couldn’t really find any counterpart in “the west.” Maybe I am not looking hard enough? Does anyone know of any US or other “western” (read as NATO) militaries that use something like this? Or have something like this? Maybe even the Israelis? The closest thing I have seen is a guy here in the US trying to reverse engineer this rifle to sell it. And good lord what a headache that would be for paperwork. Out of sheer curiosity...does anyone else know of any similar western weapons? Something that is easier to suppress than a standard rifle round (due to subsonic ammo), but has a greater range than a pistol round? Does that even exist?

Anyway. I just figured I would share this weapon with any spy fans out there. Especially if anyone is particularly interested in Russian weapons...or distrusts them and think they have no problems with assassinations...


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[Mobuck]

"does anyone else know of any similar western weapons? Something that is easier to suppress than a standard rifle round (due to subsonic ammo), but has a greater range than a pistol round? Does that even exist?"

Only about 18 bajillion AR carbines/SBR's/pistols chambered in 300 AAC/BlackOut/Whisper.

[MTT TL]

X39 leaving the barrel subsonic? I'd question the effectiveness as a one shot weapon at 400 yards.

[TXAZ]

I believe the weapon is called a Navy Seal or CIA SAD SOG operator.
They have many toys to play with of which we know not .

But there's something strange about a suppressed select fire assassins weapon.

Stonewall50 commented

....or distrusts them [Russians] and think they have no problems with assassinations...

I'm confident the Russians have no problem with assassinations, be it poison, radiological material, repeated kinetic events or something measured in grains.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It shoots a 260gr 9x39. Still, I’d say the 400m talk is more theoretical than practical. I’m sure you could lob them out and hit a man sized target on a known distance range with a known wind value. At the angle the bullet would be coming down, you could probably hit it behind a wall even. In the wild, that’s a pretty iffy shot.

I’d heard rumors someone was making rifles in that caliber here in the U.S. and trying to get ammo imported as a .300 BLK killer.

ETA: Wolf is making a 9x39 AR upper and importing the ammo.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...205th-arsenal/

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by Mobuck

"does anyone else know of any similar western weapons? Something that is easier to suppress than a standard rifle round (due to subsonic ammo), but has a greater range than a pistol round? Does that even exist?"

Only about 18 bajillion AR carbines/SBR's/pistols chambered in 300 AAC/BlackOut/Whisper.

I don’t know much about .300 blackout. I do know the round speed (from looking) seems to be supersonic. But I’m sure you could find subsonic if it isn’t already. And what is “whisper?” Like I said. I couldn’t come up with anything. I don’t know much about NFA type weapons.


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[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by MTT TL

X39 leaving the barrel subsonic? I'd question the effectiveness as a one shot weapon at 400 yards.

Depends on where the shot lands.


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[Sharkbite]

I don’t know much about .300 blackout. I do know the round speed (from looking) seems to be supersonic. But I’m sure you could find subsonic if it isn’t already. And what is “whisper?” Like I said. I couldn’t come up with anything. I don’t know much about NFA type weapons.

Short version..

The 300 Whisper round was developed for use in short barreled single shot pistols used in competition. The qoal of that competition was to knock over steel tgts at some distance. So, a round that carried its energy well was desirable.

Years later a company mated that round with an AR style rifle, got the wildcat round SAMMI approved and the 300 Blackout was born

Loadings range from 90gn supersonics to 265gn subsonics. The break between super and sub seems to be around 150gn. It basically give you 7.62x39 ballistics with super loads and just over 45acp+P with subs.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Federal 168gr Fusion in .300 BLK is still supersonic out of a 9” barrel, although not by much at about 1,450fps. Most subsonics are in the 180gr+ range. Also relevant is that 220gr is about the heaviest subsonic you can feed through an AR, so for semi-auto use that is your top end.

The 9x39 that Wolf is importing is 278gr and works just fine in semi-autos. If you are limiting yourself strictly to suppressed, subsonic, use then it looks very interesting.

My complaint with both subsonic .300 and 9x39 is inside of 200m, they offer about 100 ft/lbs more energy than say a subsonic 147gr 9mm JHP; but the in-flight ballistics are similar over that distance. However, ammo cost is substantially higher for the .300 and 9x39 (especially if you want expanding ammo). Past 200, that sleeker profile starts to pay off but by then you are already outside the practical range/wind estimation and shooting capabilities of most recreational shooters.

For most people who just want a quiet semi auto, a suppressed pistol caliber carbine in 9mm or .45 makes the most sense.

[Mobuck]

As an offensive weapon, I suspect the sub-sonic 300 BO ammo would be generally effective. As hunting round, I have less confidence. Shooting sub-sonic 190, 208, and 220 grain bullets into soft mediums results in various reactions varying from boring a .30 hole to tumbling in random directions.
I'm sitting on some of the new Hornady 190 grain "subsonic hunting" ammo. Will test it as time allows.
Regardless, conditions would have to be nearly perfect for ANY 300 AAC ammo to be effective @ 400 yards.

[Sharkbite]

Shooting sub-sonic 190, 208, and 220 grain bullets into soft mediums results in various reactions varying from boring a .30 hole to tumbling in random directions.

Lots of cast and speciality bullets that perform very well subsonic in the 300blk. Look into the stuff by Lehigh defense. The Hornady 190 is getting mixed reviews.

The 208 (Amax i assume) and the 220 (SMK?) will not expand at blackout velocities. Heck, they dont expand out of a 308win either.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

At 400m, any subsonic bullet is going to require not just perfect conditions but certainty on range and wind as well since you can miss an entire large mammal with a minor ranging error. Just spitballing; but at that distance something like a 12.5 yard ranging error will cause you to miss your target by about 1.5 feet.

The farthest I’ve shot subsonics was out to 250yds on a range and they already had a noticeable arc on them at that point.

[MTT TL]

After 300 meters it is a lot like artillery.

[Mobuck]

"I couldn’t come up with anything. I don’t know much about NFA type weapons. "

AFAIK, caliber (as long as it's not over .5")has nearly nothing to do with "NFA type weapons"(whatever that might be).
The 300 BO/AAC/Whisper is a fun little gun to shoot with IMHO a very limited niche of usage. Less recoil, better range, and fits a semi-auto platform better than a 357 magnum but still a short range hole punch(at sub-sonic velocity).
You challenged me with this comment:"I don’t know much about .300 blackout. I do know the round speed (from looking) seems to be supersonic."
Then immediately followed with:" And what is “whisper?”
About 10 keystrokes gets you considerable background.

[Road_Clam]

Interesting read. I've spent a lot of time over the past year testing 300BO subs. "Subs and precision" do not play well together. Not to mention I need an additional 26 moa of elevation dope from my standard supersonic zero to reach 200 meters. To send a bullet effectively out to 400 meters entirely subsonic is really a "stretch" .

[Mobuck]

"Not to mention I need an additional 26 moa of elevation dope from my standard supersonic zero "

I haven't found any combination of super and sub sonics that come close to same zero.
A couple of my 22lr hosts will shoot "close enough" with or w/o the can and/or sub and super sonic ammo but nothing works that way with the 300. With this in mind, I have separate 300 carbines for sub and super ammo.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

"Not to mention I need an additional 26 moa of elevation dope from my standard supersonic zero "

And that’s why my 9” SBR has a 1-6x mil/mil scope with target turrets.

[Unconventional]

What Bartholomew said.

I run target turrets on guns that use both supers and subs (300 BLK and 308 Win).

Adjust for the new zero for the subsonic ammo on the elevation turret and then use the reticle for holdovers. Pretty simple.

[Husqvarna]

Wasnt there a revolver carbine sniper rifle?

Edit: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Knight%27s...Revolver_Rifle