Firepower VS Accuracy

[DEEJAY7950]

I know many will automatically say accuracy however when your in a fire fight (Hope that never happens) your adrenaline kicks in and that can change everything! I have thought about this over a long period of time and for me I want those extra rounds! So I go with FIREPOWER FIRST because I believe accuracy improves over time! You all know were not taught to be crack shots just "Center of mass shooters"! So what's your opinion!?

[g.willikers]

Somehow the idea of firepower being attributed to handguns just doesn't jell.
Who said that when he thought of firepower, he was thinking of an F-16?
In the real world, we are responsible for each and every bullet fired.

[CSG]

"Fire fight"? Really? Are you in LE or a gangster? How many CCW holders have been in a "fire fight"?

Sorry, but training and shot placement is what civilians should be working on IMO.

[Ozzieman]

My question is, how many times have you heard that in a self defense confrontation that a large number of rounds were fired?
Also if you fire a gun and let’s say empty a Glock 19, where are all those inaccurate bullets going to go.
And if you’re lucky and you hit your assailant with all the rounds in your 19,,, are you going to have a hard time explaining in court why you shot him that many times?
A great man who rode trains with Harry Truman and carried a gun told me a simple truth.
“First round put down” he meant that if you don’t hit the assailant with the first round you just gave him time to kill you.
Adrenaline kicks in and that can change everything!

There is some truth in that, but it’s also why we train. It’s so that when that adrenaline kicks in your training over comes all else because you train the way you fight and fight the way you train.

I’ll take accuracy over spray and pray any time.

[Haz251]

So what the hell should everyone else be training. Accuracy and shot placement should be a universal training goal. Not just restricted to civilians.... I don't care what you do for a living I don't want a stray bullet fired from your gun ripping ripping through my chest cavity. No one is exempt regardless of occupation.

[Hawg]

I carry 8 rounds in a 1911. I figure if I haven't done my part with three I'm history anyway.

[Kreyzhorse]

Accuracy trumps round count and energy.

If you can't hit your target, doesn't matter how many rounds or what bullet is whizzing past your attacker.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I’ll take accuracy over spray and pray any time.

Amen

Accuracy is affected by recoil and that's why we practice, to overcome recoil and increase accuracy.

Some people overcome it enough to use a heavier round and some stay in the comfort zone and fine tune from there.

Most all self defense scenarios are at short distances and i would hope if that ever happens, i get the first one right.

[TunnelRat]

Some folks I think are misinterpreting the OP. The OP seems to be saying that he/she will choose a handgun with more rounds over one that is more accurate, all else being equal. I don't think he/she is saying accuracy isn't important or that spray and pray should be the name of the game.

My response would be that there are plenty of firearms that offer both firepower and accuracy. You can have your cake and eat it too.

[Sarge]

My response would be that there are plenty of firearms that offer both firepower and accuracy. You can have your cake and eat it too.

And in substantial calibers too, TR.

I have had an inside look at several LE engagements. A common occurrence is that lucid moment when somebody says to themselves “Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.”

Like this guy. Oddly when it was all over, he converted to the OP's line of thinking.

[Ozzieman]

The OP seems to be saying that he/she will choose a handgun with more rounds over one that is more accurate,
I have thought about this over a long period of time and for me I want those extra rounds!
So I go with FIREPOWER FIRST because I believe accuracy improves over time!
I disagree, he worded it that the shooter improves over time, not the gun nor the accuracy of one gun over another. It’s about extra rounds. Why do you need the extra rounds if you’re accurate unless you’re depending on spray and pray?
I don’t mean to put the OP down but if he means that he will depend on number of rounds instead of accuracy, he’s into a world of hurt if he ever gets into a confrontation. I have never been into a situation where I needed to use my weapon and I’m thankful for that fact. But I train enough and often enough that it will end with a minimal number of rounds.

[TunnelRat]

But I train enough and often enough that it will end with a minimal number of rounds.

There are documented cases, see Sarge's post, of assailants needing multiple hits to what should be critical areas in order to end the fight. There is no magic number that is all that is required, you never know. And yet sometimes it can end in one shot. Do I practice to be accurate? Of course. But all else being equal I will choose more capacity if I can have it.

[Tactical Jackalope]

"Fire fight"? Really? Are you in LE or a gangster? How many CCW holders have been in a "fire fight"?

Sorry, but training and shot placement is what civilians should be working on IMO.

Law enforcement personnel are civilians.


As for firepower versus accuracy? When you go to the range...what do you attempt to do? Tight groups in a bulls eye target? Or try to at least hit the center of mass with a double tap as fast as you can?

You're, in a way training for accuracy when you're at the range. (Most of us at least)


Now...firepower. Someone relying solely on firepower. Somewhat irks me. So what do you have plans of spraying and praying? If so...Leave the gun at home.




End all. People shouldn't just buy and gun and punch paper. Cool, calm, and collectively. Anyone can do tight groups all day long. Training, actual training must be instilled in your mind and muscle memory. That, in the end triumphs all.

Like going to the gym. 70% of getting muscle is outside the gym while 30% is inside the gym.

Getting a gun is a small fraction of getting prepared for the fight that we all (or should at least) want to never have to be in. But be ready for when it happens. Under stress that tight little golf ball group at 7 yards that you do at the range? Turns into probably missing your target at 7 yards as he's making his way towards you already covering ground to take your weapon.


Training. Learning to fight. Draw from retention. Take cover. Fire. etc. Training is what will be necessary. Not firepower for spray and pray. Not accuracy when cool, calm, and collect at the range. Training.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

As far as magazine capacity goes, whats three less rounds in a shootout? About 5 more than what you should ever need and though i carry a 9mm, I'm looking for a 40 hi-cap.

Go back and look at the history of the old west shootouts. The faster shot more often than not lost to the accurate shot and that proves that if you can't hit what your aiming at and he can...his six shooter is better than a 17 round 9mm. Therefore the gun is not more or less accurate, the shooter is.


Calling a gun with a like a 9mm more accurate than a 40S&W technically is totally false.

Most users Can be more accurate with a smaller caliber than a larger one when shooting fast. That's the reason why many stick with a 9mm plus the capacity.

I think we get use to calling the gun less accurate instead of referring to the recoil tradeoff.

You may find yourself moving up in caliber one day or you may not as for me I would love to have a hi-cap 45 or higher cap 40 than what i already own.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Huh?!?

Anyways, moved from .40 to .45 and 9mm.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Just to add to that, this is a S&W SD9VE with the stock 7+ lb trigger (before apex spring kit) with about a second or less between rounds. (note they looked nothing like that first 100 rounds ) (sorry the picture is sideways)4" targets

I started at 30ft moved out to 35 in the middle one, back to 30 on the bottom then 25ft.

I have shot better with the heavy hi-point I have than with the 9mm before the trigger job. (BTW best $20 and 20 minutes ever spent on a firearm) After the trigger job About the same with a slight advantage to speed on the 9mm.

The 40 has double the weight and recoil but a much softer trigger.

[CurlyQ.Howard]

Sarge, Thanks for the link. Everybody needs to read that article.

[KyJim]

By "firepower" does the OP mean number of rounds or a larger/more powerful caliber? Seems like some here read this to mean more rounds. If so, there's no reason you can't have both in the same gun. I cannot argue against the fact that more rounds are better than fewer rounds, all other things being equal, including accuracy.

However, I read the OP's post as indicating a preference for a more powerful caliber. There is plenty of reason to disagree with this statement. Except for some possible damage to a bad guy's hearing, a miss from a .44 mag really doesn't mean much. It doesn't mean as much as a hit with a .22 in the right spot.

[AK103K]

These two articles come to mind right off....



http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/...gunner/AHMJ11/ (page 32)

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...mo-on-the-job/

ETA: sorry Sarge, I didnt see your link. looks like I posted the same one.


When these type threads come up, I find its usually more of a discussion between bullseye type "target" shooters, and those who practice on a more realistic level, and/or have actually been involved in a fight.

My experience has been, those who dont practice "realistically", tend to overestimate or exaggerate their skills. Most who I have gone shooting with who say they are good pistol shots, often are when they are standing still, shooting at their leisure, but tell them to put that gun in a holster or their waistband, then draw and shoot while moving off line and shoot multiple targets on the move, most seem to fall apart, and many wont do it at all.

Pistols are lousy people stoppers, and caliber is irrelevant. You have to shoot them to the ground and do it quickly, without thought and hesitation. If they are on their feet, you keep shooting until they arent. If they go down on the first shot, great, if not, you keep shooting. There is really only one "kill switch" in the human body, and its a very small target. A lot of other targets "may" cause death eventually, but in that time in between, they may well get to keep trying to kill you.

How you decide beforehand how many rounds you will only need, has always been a wonderment to me. Regardless what you think, or hype youve bought into, it simply takes exactly what it takes, nothing more, nothing less, whether you like it or not.

If you think that 5 shot J frame, or 8 shot 1911, is all you need, more power to you. If youre happy, Im happy. Ill take as many rounds as I can reasonably get in the gun, and carry a couple of reloads as well. That makes me happy.

[DEEJAY7950]

Wow, thanks for all the feed back, a special thanks to Sarge for the link to that article, really hits hard, never in my wildest dreams would I ever think a person could survive several rounds from a .45 cal! That article said it all for me and confirms my thoughts were on track! If you weren't in a cave when that shooting happened in Boston you seen for yourself that several untold rounds were fired, how many ? Well we will not get the actual amount fired, but the sanitized version, that's just the way it is in the real world! !

[Buzzcook]

That's pretty much a false choice. You need to be just as accurate with a gun that hold lots of ammo as one that holds less.

Buying a gun with a high capacity magazine and then stopping right there and saying; well I got fire power now I don't need accuracy, is not a good idea.

[KyJim]

But you created a meaningless quandary if you mean more rounds versus accuracy. You can have both

[DEEJAY7950]

Wreck n Crew, very nice groups but no one was shooting back either and I pray no one ever does, can you see my point? Under stress things change you no longer have the same mindset as in target shooting because your in a survival mode and the adrenaline is flowing, no one can train for that, however I will say experience in situational awareness and constant training & shooting sure does help!

[dayman]

I'm a bit confused.

Is the question "big inaccurate rounds vs. little accurate rounds", or "lots and lots of rounds vs. a few well placed rounds"?

Either way I'm going to have to echo the disagreement.

Regarding the first possibility:
First, there's nothing more inherently accurate about smaller bullets. Some people prefer certain calibers, but that's entirely a function of training. The reason some people are less accurate with bigger calibers is generally that they're having a hard time with the recoil.
Second, within the commonly used SD calibers there's not a lot of difference in performance between the "little" ones and the "big" ones. The switch between .25ACP and .50AE would certainly change things up, but 9/40/45 are all gonna do pretty much the same thing.
So, basically people should just pick the one they shoot the best.

Regarding the second possibility
If a person can't shoot accurately they should not be carrying a gun. It may be their right to do so, but they still shouldn't. The only rounds that are going to do a person any good are the accurate ones anyway.
Capacity is a good thing. Capacity is a great thing. But the point of having 17 rounds is that - if things go catastrophically wrong* - a person can make 17 accurate shots without having to change magazines. The point is not to have 17 random chances to hit something while dumping a mag.

Maybe I missed your point twice, but regardless, any time anybody argues anything is more important than accuracy I'm going to disagree.
So yeah, that's my $0.02.


*catastrophically wrong with regards to the number of rounds needed, but no so catastrophic as to involve a jam or a magazine failure.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Wreck n Crew, very nice groups but no one was shooting back either and I pray no one ever does, can you see my point?

Those were only for reference as to the accuracy and the effect of the heavy trigger pull. I added an Apex to lighten it up.

As far as "stress drills" "tactical drills" I shoot them as often as getting use to the gun and it's sights. Doesn't keep me from going to the range.

I have have lead my way on enough occasions, and that were close enough to make a grown man crap himself and that is as much as i care to talk about that (personal). I never assume that's why I carry