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Old September 27, 2017, 08:08 PM   #1
njjr1989
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One hundred yard bench rest

Due to traveling distance, I rarely shoot at more than one hundreds yards. I reload my ammo and have a few questions for the 100 yard shooter.

I shoot the following.
Winchester 700, 30 06, 1 in 10 twist
Ruger Precision, 6.5 Creedmoor' 1 in 8 twist
Home built AR15 223 with 24 inch Bull Barrel, 1 in 8 twist

My questions are about bullet weight at this short distance. With the Winchester I average about 1-1/2 inch for each 3 shot group. Not too bad for a hunting rifle. Have tried several different bullet weights and powder brands and various weights.

I consistently shoot 1/2 inch groups and less with the Creedmoor and the AR15, using bullets in the around the top weights of both. Have several single hole groups in both of these guns. All signed by witness.

What I want to ascertain is, should I be looking at heavy or light bullets for short distance shooting. I've told that you need to use heavy bullets for long distance, because they take longer to stabilize.

If this sounds confusing to you sorry. At 81 years old, I have only been loading and shooting for two years but at the range at least twice a week.
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Old September 28, 2017, 07:42 AM   #2
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Your goal is not clear. Do you want top accuracy for the purpose of hunting or top accuracy for the purpose of target shooting? A target bullet is not a hunting bullet. Target bullets are generally made in weights appropriate for that purpose. Hunting bullets are made in various weights as to accommodate the intended game animal (e.g., small Southern deer as opposed to Elk and Moose, etc.).
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Old September 28, 2017, 08:17 AM   #3
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Accurate bench shooting is a function of many things being "right". The technique & rifle-rests are just as critical as the rifle/ammo itself, not to mention that a low power scope won't get you consistent tiny groups either.

Since you are getting great accuracy out of 2 of your 3 rifles you are doing things "right".

A 168gr match bullet should really perform in '06 with 1-10" twist at 100yds so concentrate around that weight. Since you have tried other combinations in the .30-06 without much improvement, I'd be looking at possible problems with the gun/scope itself. Check all the usual suspects like bedding, action screw tension & scope mount.

JIMHO...
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Old September 28, 2017, 12:34 PM   #4
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"...heavy or light bullets for short distance..." Distance doesn't matter much. Use any 165 grain hunting bullet for the '06. (Partial to IMR4064 myself.) Sight in about 3.5" high at 100 and you'll be on target out to roughly 300 yards with no hold over. Same powder and sight-in for a 168 grain match bullet(out to 600 yards). Assuming you're just target shooting at 100, a 150 or 155 grain match bullet, also with IMR4064, will have a bit less felt recoil.
"...they take longer to stabilize..." Takes any .30-06 or .308 bullet 300 yards to stabilize. 300 yards is short range for NRA (and Canadian DCRA) High Power match shooting.
Don't shoot a 6.5 or .223 myself. However, the rifling twist on the AR says heavy bullets. That'd be 69 plus grains.
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Old September 28, 2017, 02:31 PM   #5
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You have got two of your rifles shooting good groups. The 3006 can be a challenge, especially if it is an older gun with a bit of wear on it. My old sporterized 03A3 still shoots under one inch groups and it has a lot of wear. One load, that I no longer use, that produced good groups is an old stand-by load for targets. it is a 165 spitzer boatail (hunting) bullet (Speer) a WW LRP and 46.7 grains of H4895. I have used that load in a few different 3006s and it always makes groups under 1 inch at 100 yards. It is not a fast load in my gun at just under 2700 fps so the drop doesn't fit my hunting style but it is accurate. I get an added 100 fps with H414 and I can shoot with a point blank point of impact of +/- 1 inch out to 200 yards.
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Old September 30, 2017, 09:46 AM   #6
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I am probably trying to get too much from the Remington 700. I received it and 12 other rifles from my uncle when he passed away. Serial number shows that it was built in 1962 and is in pristine condition. He was an avid hunter and spent little tine on the range. Once I zeroed it, the first bullet down range always hits near dead center. I believe the problem is most likely heat. By the third round the barrel is really hot. I could probably improve the groups by cooling the barrel between rounds which I am going to try the next time I take it to the range. I use a barrel fan between groups I just have not tried it between rounds. Since this is ma hunting rifle with a thin barrel, it is designed to fire one deadly round and then you go gut you dear or whatever.

I have considered replacing the barrel with a bull barrel with 5R rifling but really don't want to change this rifle for sentimental reasons. Plus for the cost of a barrel and new stock, I could buy a new Remington Precision rifle.

What I was really thinking about when I started this thread was bullet stabilization. As was stated above, I read somewhere that bullets take several hundred yards to fully stabilize and at one hundred yards that is simply not enough distance.

My best results have been with the 168gr Sierra Match King using various loads of IMR 4064. Of course I have tried other combinations of powder and bullets.

Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to answer this thread. I will continue to experiment with the rifle and see where that goes.

Nick
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Old September 30, 2017, 11:18 AM   #7
Jim Watson
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Quote:
I read somewhere that bullets take several hundred yards to fully stabilize and at one hundred yards that is simply not enough distance.
I have read and heard this many times. I cannot see how bullets can get more accurate the farther they go. The pretty corkscrew plots you may have seen are on a scale of .03 to .10 inch.

Ballistician Brian Litz has issued a challenge, if you can shoot groups smaller in MOA at 300 yards than at 100 yards, he will pay your way to demonstrate it on his targets at his range. The requirement is that it be the SAME BULLETS, shot through a tissue paper target at 100 yards on their way to 300. What you did yesterday at 100 and today at 300 with different bullets does not count.

Also remember, in our youth (I am 72) the Weatherby guarantee of 1.5" groups at 100 yards was a big deal.
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Old October 13, 2017, 09:17 AM   #8
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This is Brian Litz challenge

https://www.longrangehunting.com/thr...llenge.144359/

This is other one

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...lenge.3861880/
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Old October 13, 2017, 11:14 AM   #9
Don Fischer
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OK, I'll ask. Is your 30-06 a Winchester mod 700 or a Remington mod 70? Yea I know it can'r be either but it could be a Winchester mod 70 or a Remington mod 700!
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Old July 14, 2018, 09:57 AM   #10
njjr1989
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Sorry about the confusion as to brand. It is a Remington 700. I also have a Winchester 70 and sometimes get confused when I talk about them. By the way, I like the Remington better. Also apologize for taking so long to answer.
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Old July 14, 2018, 04:07 PM   #11
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your goal is not clear. Do you want top accuracy for the purpose of hunting or top accuracy for the purpose of target shooting? A target bullet is not a hunting bullet. Target bullets are generally made in weights appropriate for that purpose. Hunting bullets are made in various weights as to accommodate the intended game animal (e.g., small Southern deer as opposed to Elk and Moose, etc.).
I find a lot of error in the above statement.

First accuracy as more to do with twist and weight than the exact bullet type. You can certainly get under 1 inch with many hunting bullets if you reload.

The Winchester eshes (XXX?) is certainly good enough for hunting. But to get good accuracy out of it (or find out what it can do) you would need to reload. Its possible it just needs a bit longer than factory COAL (the throat may be a bit eroded)

Its not likely worn as they tend not to get shot enough to do that and a 30-06 is good for 5000+ rounds before accuracy starts falling off for target (more like e8k for most of us)

150 to 180 grain are supposedly are ideal for a 1-10 twist 06. Some will shot 150s and even lighter gangbusters all the way down to 125.

I would suggest you get some Carboi Killer 2000 and clean it. We had an old 270 that would not shoot, it had a lot of carbon build up. It was cleaned but the old cleaners are not that effective so it built up layers. As good as CK2k is, that took me a lot of brush, let sit and soak and patch out (nylon brush with the CK2k put on with an eye dropper, a few strokes, repeat when its out the bore, dry patch, repeat until clean.

Don't be fooled by a cleaning barrel, if you get a borresocope you will see the carbon (maybe copper but not likely ) built up. Bore Tech Eliminaor is a good one to clean out copper while helping with carbon. Both are non odor and non haz, love em.

They do come clear quickly if shot and barrel is warm, my MO is to shoot one or one of the ones I have clean to do the clean at the range .

I am a 1 inch (3/4 to 15/16 at 110 yards (longest I can setup with the 270 with 5 shot groups and lead tip hunting bullets. Best factory was pushing 2 inches. Havn't tried factory again though.
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Old July 15, 2018, 05:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Quote:
your goal is not clear. Do you want top accuracy for the purpose of hunting or top accuracy for the purpose of target shooting? A target bullet is not a hunting bullet. Target bullets are generally made in weights appropriate for that purpose. Hunting bullets are made in various weights as to accommodate the intended game animal (e.g., small Southern deer as opposed to Elk and Moose, etc.).
Quote:
I find a lot of error in the above statement.
Quote:
First accuracy as more to do with twist and weight than the exact bullet type. You can certainly get under 1 inch with many hunting bullets if you reload.
Having tested several brands of made for target shooting and several styles intended for of hunting of the same brands, I find that in at least consistency in weight, bullets intended for target purposes demonstrated to be more consistent as well as over-all more accurate in performance (tighter groups) than hunting bullets. In sum, a hunting bullet is not a target bullet and vice versa. There are subtle features of some hunting bullets that add problematic elements not necessarily conducive to accuracy. Exposed bullet noses, internal bands (Hornady Interloc), internal jacket grooves, jackets thinned towards the front, etc., all are features that can make it more difficult to make uniform bullets. A target bullet, on the other hand, need only be a basic cup and draw, with no terminal performance gimmicks that ad to the bullet complexity at the cost of uniformity.
Note: when discussing "Bench Rest" (A.K.A. Target) accuracy, one-inch groups are on the large side.
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Old July 15, 2018, 06:28 PM   #13
RC20
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Hunting vs match makes zero difference unless you are working down under 1/2 inch.
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Old July 15, 2018, 07:51 PM   #14
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Hunting vs match makes zero difference unless you are working down under 1/2 inch.
Uhhhh. Are you claiming you can shoot 1/2 inch five-shot groups with .30 cal. "hunting" bullets? If you are, I will just say, "yeah, right." and exit this discussion.
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Old July 15, 2018, 08:20 PM   #15
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1/2 @ 100

How are you handling your brass?

Full length sizing or neck sizing?

Trimming to necessary dimensions?

Segregating your brass by manufacturer, number of times reloaded, etc.?

There's so much to consider when reloading for accuracy.

Good luck.
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Old July 20, 2018, 08:51 PM   #16
B.L.E.
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I've told that you need to use heavy bullets for long distance, because they take longer to stabilize.
Actually, it's because they slow down less and thus are not as affected by wind drift, although making a bullet heavier does not guarantee a better ballistic coefficient, as a general rule, the heavier bullets have higher ballistic coefficients, the higher the BC, the less the bullet drifts in a crosswind.
At 100 yards, you can just about ignore crosswinds, unless you are trying to win a bench rest match where opening the group by a quarter inch will make you lose the match, but at 600 or more yards, you ignore the wind at your peril.

Also, when you say "take longer to stabilize" what is meant is that it takes longer for the bullet to settle down and line up with the wind if for any reason the bullet was launched slightly yawed.
At 100 yards, it matters little if a bullet is over stabilized, spinning faster than necessary. But when shooting at distances beyond point blank range, an over stabilized bullet tends to hold its orientation and hit nose high.
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Last edited by B.L.E.; July 21, 2018 at 07:30 AM.
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Old July 23, 2018, 01:17 PM   #17
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Uhhhh. Are you claiming you can shoot 1/2 inch five-shot groups with .30 cal. "hunting" bullets? If you are, I will just say, "yeah, right." and exit this discussion.
Havn't tried it. I could be that if they were low cost as the match bullets it might. All depends on the rifle.

What I can tell you is the 270 with some 60s maybe 70s era hunting bullets is shooting sub MOA.

I would not rule out a hunting bullet doing under 1/2 I don't claim it will but I sure don't rule it out.
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Old July 23, 2018, 09:09 PM   #18
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I shot this 100 yard five shot group with a Ruger #1 falling block single shot rifle in .22 Hornet.
Yes, a Ruger #1
Yes, a .22 Hornet
Reloaded ammo, neck sized only, longer than factory OAL, just enough to bump into the rifling. You can do that with single shots, there's no magazine that the rounds have to fit into. Your pockets are the magazine.
This was shot in a 100 yard indoor range with zero crosswinds to worry about.

Can it be done with .30 caliber bullets? Probably. Less wind drift than a 40 grain .22 bullet too. I have never equaled this group when shooting outdoors with wind and all that. I might have to try making myself some wind flags to place downrange so I can tell when to hold my fire.

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Old July 24, 2018, 02:50 PM   #19
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I can do that with my Browning Micro A-Bolt using the 30 gr varmint grenades....10 shots.

Also, I can shoot a 3/8" 10 shot group with a Speer Hot Cor 150 gr in one of my 30-06s at 100 yds.

The same bullet in a Win Mod 70 will shoot 10 shots into 9/16" at 200 yds with a little more of the same powder. Want me to prove it? Meet me at the range.

DAHermit: it is not impossible at all.
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