Question watching movie Blackhawk Down

Alan0354 · June 19, 2021, 01:07 AM

I am not in the military, never been to war, just sitting at home watching tv only. But I have a question that might be very ignorant. I have not even finish the movie, just can't wait to ask people that might have real life experience.

In the movie, there's a lot of street to street fighting where a lot of cases the enemies are within 25yds. Those soldiers are either Delta Force or Rangers. They all supposed to be very well trained, not just regular joe. I assume they were using M16 or something just as accurate. How the hell they keep shooting and missed the enemy?

They were not charging, a lot of them were behind barricade. They should have time to aim, at least one second to aim. Stupid and ignorant old me, I know I can shoot the head every time in like 25 yd or less given the kind of time. ( of cause, I am arm chair quarterbacking and with no pressure). BUT hell, I am not Delta or Rangers either. they were just wasting ammo shooting.

I am not an exception shooter by any means, I only shot rifle a few times, I never have problem hitting the target at 50yds or even 100yds and is not even all over the target. Also, I've been to gun range for years and saw "police" shooting all over the place and particular those that wore camouflage, never seen one that can shoot yet all these years. I hope those were not in the military, or else, it's sad. I am not into rifle because it's too easy to shoot in short distance like 50 yds. I know for long distance, then the wind comes into play and it's a totally different skill set. But at 25yds or closer, come on!!!!

Is it just in movie that they just shoot a lot of bullets to make it more dramatic? Seems like it would be a lot more productive to think and look more and shoot less!!!

Is this movie, not real life? Or I am too ignorant to even ask?

Ignorant me.

Scorch · June 19, 2021, 02:05 AM

Quote:

How the hell they keep shooting and missed the enemy?

Because when you are being shot at you don't take time to aim, breathe, squeeze the trigger. You point and pull, spray and pray, however you want to say it.

Quote:

Is this movie, not real life?

It really happened. Real live people got killed, real live people got hurt. Google "Battle of Mogadishu". We were there to help, we got bushwhacked. We were up to our butts in alligators pretty quick.

But, yeah, it's just a movie, don't worry about it.

Alan0354 · June 19, 2021, 02:29 AM

Thanks

I know this is a real story, I am more asking is this how real battle is? I am not going to comment on the shooting anymore out of respect to our military people. Just curious about how they missed so much.

I finished the movie, it makes my blood boil. We were fighting with one hand tie at the back. We should learn the lesson don't butt into other countries particularly those civil wars. You can't win, half of their people love you and half hate you. You don't know who's your friend or enemy. Hind sight looking at 20 years in middle east, we are wasting our people's lives doing nation building and spreading democracy.

Don Fischer · June 19, 2021, 09:24 AM

When the target shoot's back things get more complicated! Waiting for a chance to get good aim doesn't get much done. Putting a bunch of bullet's in the air works better! If the enemy has bullet's coming at them too, they don't take careful aim either!

Alan0354 · June 19, 2021, 01:30 PM

I cannot repeat enough, I am just a arm chair quarterback that know NOTHING about fighting in the war. BUT, you still need to stick your head out, look before shooting. I remember I watch a video back in the 80s about home defense, you stick your head out very quick just to locate the enemy. Then the next time you change your position a little(so it's not the original position you first stick you head out), very fast aim and shoot. Make it two step, first locate the enemy ( enemies), then next time you are prepare to aim. 1/2 sec of aiming makes a huge difference.

I find this technique useful....At least as an arm chair quarterback. Maybe they should teach people in the military also.

raimius · June 19, 2021, 02:33 PM

Things get more difficult when you are surrounded by people trying to kill you. There are times to go for accuracy and times for suppressive fire. Both were used during the battle.

handlerer2 · June 19, 2021, 03:19 PM

Well, Alan. Had you been there, you could have straightened those Delta Force and Army Rangers right up and gotten them on target.

While I'm not A Viet Nam vet, my father was. He did three tours In Nam and was KIA October 23, 1967. He was one of the first group of American advisors sent there in 1964.

My father was a Navy Seebee. We didn't know it until 25 years later, that my father, having an aptitude for languages, was trained as an interpreter. He was used not so much to interrogate prisoners, but was there to see if the actual Vietnamese interrogator was telling us the truth. My father confided in me that these interrogations were brutal and the most disturbing thing he endured in his first two tours. He also added that immediately after these interrogations, often that prisoner was shot. All he would say was that it was their country and he could not interfere. I was almost 15 when he was killed.

My point is that you obviously have no concept of the actual stress involved in fighting desperately for your life. Yes, anyone can hit a target at 25yds with an AR. Can you do it when there is death flying at you from more than one direction, and the soldier next to you has quit screaming because of blood loss?

While I never saw combat, I have had to fight desperately for my life. It, was for me an odd experience. I was attacked, my heart felt like it did a backflip in my chest and a little voice said you're going to die, but fight anyway. In less than a minute it was over. I didn't die and was not robbed. I was injured, but my attackers fled, partly because of my resistance and partly because of the scene being illuminated by car lights.

In 1966 between tours our next door neighbor, was Marvin Sheilds, who received the Congressional Medal of Honor, posthumously. My parents called him Billy. Olly North did an episode on his story, with a list of Army generals that said they would not be alive today if it weren't for Billy Sheilds.

I don't remember the numbers, but there were a million or some ridiculous number of rounds of small arms ammo fired for every confirmed enemy killed, by small arms fire, in the Korean War. It has been noted statistically that artillery has historically killed more men on the battlefield, by far. Was all of that rifle training wasted?

This has turned into a long comment, but you kind of punched one of my buttons, with what I saw as an implication that these men were incompetent.

You will never know, I hope, what those soldiers experienced that day. Until you do have this experience and have vanquished all the enemies with single shots to the forehead and are decorated according to your achievement, can you justify this attitude, IMO.

Electrod47 · June 19, 2021, 04:23 PM

Thank you from a vet

Alan0354 · June 19, 2021, 04:54 PM

Yes, I don't know, just curious.

HiBC · June 19, 2021, 05:44 PM

I'm not a Veteran,either. I've never been to war.

Add to your factors to consider the fog of war was very thick. As in,it was a cluster pluck. Add carrying your wounded. Add 80 pounds plus on your back and running wind sprints punctuated with burpees.
Add the only water you have is what you carried in,and this action is in serious overtime. Sudden death overtime.
Add that there are a LOT of folks who want to kill you.They are in the neighborhood they grew up in.
You aint from around here.
From any roof or door or rock or alley,from any and every direction (unknown) ,somebody else is taking that easy 25 yd shot at you!.

I don't know if you can quite put yourself in this place,but suppose you have a semi-adequate piece of cover.OK,change magazines. You are down to 5 full.

Wherever you are going,you ain't there yet.You,blowing and wheezing,have to get yourself up and moving...but it sounds like 4th of July. Bullets snapping and whizzing,splinters and bits of rock are hitting your face,and you are beyond exhausted.

Knowing you are likely going to get hit,you find the raw stones to get to your feet. With your 85 lb ruck

There is screaming,muzzle flashes, and mostly you know you have to move.

Every thing is a blur.

Now tell me the part about how you are going to see and identify your targets and place a shot. Easy-peezy.

Maybe not.
Often the only real option is through "fire superiority" .Create an environment so hostile your enemy is only concerned with sticking his ear and his belly button in the dirt . You might even hit someone.

After the little transportation snafu that left those Rangers with no transport,
They ran the Mogadishu mile through hostile territory mostly out of ammo.

They mostly growled and glared.

When they made it to base,they mostly wanted to ammo up and go back.

I,myself,as a non-Veteran who has never been there, feel grateful and humble and in awe of what these men went through and did.

Forgive me if I misspell a name, but go to the Medal of Honor website,and look up the names Gordon and Schugart They were there that day. They said Hoka Hay that day.
They went down to stand over Blackhawk pilot Duran. They fought till they ran out of ammo then they died. Duran lived.
I can't help but feel humble.

Adventurer 2 · June 20, 2021, 06:47 AM

It’s just a movie made by a director that likes sound effects and explosions. But if there was an appearance in real life of a low hit to round count at close range - I offer up: Aideeds clan were known all day users of khat (stimulant) and maybe the Ranger bat had the latest tech of the time - M4s instead of M16 A whatever version - difference of 4.5 inches in barrel length - turning the current 5.56 round into a pencil hole puncher (no disruption due to reduced velocity).

Rob228 · June 20, 2021, 06:54 AM

If the movie showed how it really played out, the soldiers would have looked like they were massacring the people attempting to kill them.
Notice they also never showed the effects of the mini guns on the Blackhawks being fired into the armed crowd? You can't put that on a movie screen.

mehavey · June 20, 2021, 08:24 AM

Reality:

The whole exchange lasted over an hour, and though they attempted to ambush us on a number of occasions, the men acted wonderfully. The driver of one of the trucks that was firing at us was taken in alive ...I had never been in a situation like that. You always wonder how you will act and if you will do the right thing, but you can never be sure until you are in it for real. When I was caught in the open when they attempted to block off the road and catch us in a cross fire, I was in the lead and dismounted. There was no cover. It was a split second decision, but I charged them, firing a whole magazine into them as I ran. Two seconds into my charge the 50.cal from the truck behind me let loose and tore up the enemy vehicle. I saw two of the fighters in the back go down from my fire. The enemy truck sped off (i don't know how it was still holding together), but we intercepted it a minute or two later ....

BHD wasn't too far off....

June 19, 2021, 01:07 AM	#1
Alan0354 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2021 Posts: 541	Question watching movie Blackhawk Down I am not in the military, never been to war, just sitting at home watching tv only. But I have a question that might be very ignorant. I have not even finish the movie, just can't wait to ask people that might have real life experience. In the movie, there's a lot of street to street fighting where a lot of cases the enemies are within 25yds. Those soldiers are either Delta Force or Rangers. They all supposed to be very well trained, not just regular joe. I assume they were using M16 or something just as accurate. How the hell they keep shooting and missed the enemy? They were not charging, a lot of them were behind barricade. They should have time to aim, at least one second to aim. Stupid and ignorant old me, I know I can shoot the head every time in like 25 yd or less given the kind of time. ( of cause, I am arm chair quarterbacking and with no pressure). BUT hell, I am not Delta or Rangers either. they were just wasting ammo shooting. I am not an exception shooter by any means, I only shot rifle a few times, I never have problem hitting the target at 50yds or even 100yds and is not even all over the target. Also, I've been to gun range for years and saw "police" shooting all over the place and particular those that wore camouflage, never seen one that can shoot yet all these years. I hope those were not in the military, or else, it's sad. I am not into rifle because it's too easy to shoot in short distance like 50 yds. I know for long distance, then the wind comes into play and it's a totally different skill set. But at 25yds or closer, come on!!!! Is it just in movie that they just shoot a lot of bullets to make it more dramatic? Seems like it would be a lot more productive to think and look more and shoot less!!! Is this movie, not real life? Or I am too ignorant to even ask? Ignorant me. Last edited by Alan0354; June 19, 2021 at 01:29 AM.

June 19, 2021, 03:19 PM	#7
handlerer2 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2010 Location: Yellowstone Co, MT Posts: 489	Well, Alan. Had you been there, you could have straightened those Delta Force and Army Rangers right up and gotten them on target. While I'm not A Viet Nam vet, my father was. He did three tours In Nam and was KIA October 23, 1967. He was one of the first group of American advisors sent there in 1964. My father was a Navy Seebee. We didn't know it until 25 years later, that my father, having an aptitude for languages, was trained as an interpreter. He was used not so much to interrogate prisoners, but was there to see if the actual Vietnamese interrogator was telling us the truth. My father confided in me that these interrogations were brutal and the most disturbing thing he endured in his first two tours. He also added that immediately after these interrogations, often that prisoner was shot. All he would say was that it was their country and he could not interfere. I was almost 15 when he was killed. My point is that you obviously have no concept of the actual stress involved in fighting desperately for your life. Yes, anyone can hit a target at 25yds with an AR. Can you do it when there is death flying at you from more than one direction, and the soldier next to you has quit screaming because of blood loss? While I never saw combat, I have had to fight desperately for my life. It, was for me an odd experience. I was attacked, my heart felt like it did a backflip in my chest and a little voice said you're going to die, but fight anyway. In less than a minute it was over. I didn't die and was not robbed. I was injured, but my attackers fled, partly because of my resistance and partly because of the scene being illuminated by car lights. In 1966 between tours our next door neighbor, was Marvin Sheilds, who received the Congressional Medal of Honor, posthumously. My parents called him Billy. Olly North did an episode on his story, with a list of Army generals that said they would not be alive today if it weren't for Billy Sheilds. I don't remember the numbers, but there were a million or some ridiculous number of rounds of small arms ammo fired for every confirmed enemy killed, by small arms fire, in the Korean War. It has been noted statistically that artillery has historically killed more men on the battlefield, by far. Was all of that rifle training wasted? This has turned into a long comment, but you kind of punched one of my buttons, with what I saw as an implication that these men were incompetent. You will never know, I hope, what those soldiers experienced that day. Until you do have this experience and have vanquished all the enemies with single shots to the forehead and are decorated according to your achievement, can you justify this attitude, IMO. Last edited by handlerer2; June 19, 2021 at 07:36 PM.

June 19, 2021, 05:44 PM	#10
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I'm not a Veteran,either. I've never been to war. Add to your factors to consider the fog of war was very thick. As in,it was a cluster pluck. Add carrying your wounded. Add 80 pounds plus on your back and running wind sprints punctuated with burpees. Add the only water you have is what you carried in,and this action is in serious overtime. Sudden death overtime. Add that there are a LOT of folks who want to kill you.They are in the neighborhood they grew up in. You aint from around here. From any roof or door or rock or alley,from any and every direction (unknown) ,somebody else is taking that easy 25 yd shot at you!. I don't know if you can quite put yourself in this place,but suppose you have a semi-adequate piece of cover.OK,change magazines. You are down to 5 full. Wherever you are going,you ain't there yet.You,blowing and wheezing,have to get yourself up and moving...but it sounds like 4th of July. Bullets snapping and whizzing,splinters and bits of rock are hitting your face,and you are beyond exhausted. Knowing you are likely going to get hit,you find the raw stones to get to your feet. With your 85 lb ruck There is screaming,muzzle flashes, and mostly you know you have to move. Every thing is a blur. Now tell me the part about how you are going to see and identify your targets and place a shot. Easy-peezy. Maybe not. Often the only real option is through "fire superiority" .Create an environment so hostile your enemy is only concerned with sticking his ear and his belly button in the dirt . You might even hit someone. After the little transportation snafu that left those Rangers with no transport, They ran the Mogadishu mile through hostile territory mostly out of ammo. They mostly growled and glared. When they made it to base,they mostly wanted to ammo up and go back. I,myself,as a non-Veteran who has never been there, feel grateful and humble and in awe of what these men went through and did. Forgive me if I misspell a name, but go to the Medal of Honor website,and look up the names Gordon and Schugart They were there that day. They said Hoka Hay that day. They went down to stand over Blackhawk pilot Duran. They fought till they ran out of ammo then they died. Duran lived. I can't help but feel humble. Last edited by HiBC; June 19, 2021 at 06:09 PM.

June 19, 2021, 02:29 AM	#3
Alan0354 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2021 Posts: 541	Thanks I know this is a real story, I am more asking is this how real battle is? I am not going to comment on the shooting anymore out of respect to our military people. Just curious about how they missed so much. I finished the movie, it makes my blood boil. We were fighting with one hand tie at the back. We should learn the lesson don't butt into other countries particularly those civil wars. You can't win, half of their people love you and half hate you. You don't know who's your friend or enemy. Hind sight looking at 20 years in middle east, we are wasting our people's lives doing nation building and spreading democracy.

June 19, 2021, 09:24 AM	#4
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	When the target shoot's back things get more complicated! Waiting for a chance to get good aim doesn't get much done. Putting a bunch of bullet's in the air works better! If the enemy has bullet's coming at them too, they don't take careful aim either!

June 19, 2021, 01:30 PM	#5
Alan0354 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2021 Posts: 541	I cannot repeat enough, I am just a arm chair quarterback that know NOTHING about fighting in the war. BUT, you still need to stick your head out, look before shooting. I remember I watch a video back in the 80s about home defense, you stick your head out very quick just to locate the enemy. Then the next time you change your position a little(so it's not the original position you first stick you head out), very fast aim and shoot. Make it two step, first locate the enemy ( enemies), then next time you are prepare to aim. 1/2 sec of aiming makes a huge difference. I find this technique useful....At least as an arm chair quarterback. Maybe they should teach people in the military also.

June 19, 2021, 02:33 PM	#6
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Things get more difficult when you are surrounded by people trying to kill you. There are times to go for accuracy and times for suppressive fire. Both were used during the battle.

June 19, 2021, 04:23 PM	#8
Electrod47 Member Join Date: April 27, 2021 Location: SE Mississippi Posts: 93	Thank you from a vet

June 19, 2021, 04:54 PM	#9
Alan0354 Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2021 Posts: 541	Yes, I don't know, just curious.

June 20, 2021, 06:47 AM	#11
Adventurer 2 Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2006 Posts: 663	It’s just a movie made by a director that likes sound effects and explosions. But if there was an appearance in real life of a low hit to round count at close range - I offer up: Aideeds clan were known all day users of khat (stimulant) and maybe the Ranger bat had the latest tech of the time - M4s instead of M16 A whatever version - difference of 4.5 inches in barrel length - turning the current 5.56 round into a pencil hole puncher (no disruption due to reduced velocity).

June 20, 2021, 06:54 AM	#12
Rob228 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2010 Location: Hampstead NC Posts: 1,450	If the movie showed how it really played out, the soldiers would have looked like they were massacring the people attempting to kill them. Notice they also never showed the effects of the mini guns on the Blackhawks being fired into the armed crowd? You can't put that on a movie screen.

June 20, 2021, 08:24 AM	#13
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,886	Reality: The whole exchange lasted over an hour, and though they attempted to ambush us on a number of occasions, the men acted wonderfully. The driver of one of the trucks that was firing at us was taken in alive ...I had never been in a situation like that. You always wonder how you will act and if you will do the right thing, but you can never be sure until you are in it for real. When I was caught in the open when they attempted to block off the road and catch us in a cross fire, I was in the lead and dismounted. There was no cover. It was a split second decision, but I charged them, firing a whole magazine into them as I ran. Two seconds into my charge the 50.cal from the truck behind me let loose and tore up the enemy vehicle. I saw two of the fighters in the back go down from my fire. The enemy truck sped off (i don't know how it was still holding together), but we intercepted it a minute or two later .... BHD wasn't too far off....