A Discussion on PCC's. - Page 3

MarkCO · May 3, 2023, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Then save for a Kalashnikof K9 (9mm). Although it uses proprietary mags, it is a blast at the range. Reliable, accurate, easy to operate and maintain.

The team shooter that they sent over to the Lucas Oil PCC World Championship had one of the first. She let us shoot it quite a bit. She was super nice, and so was the K9.

ballardw · May 3, 2023, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkCO

It's just a possibility. But my contact at Ruger is pretty high up the food chain. It better take 1911 mags if they make it.

Considering its Ruger wouldn't that be "SR1911" mags?

L-2 · May 3, 2023, 07:39 PM

I'm sorry to say, I don't know the history of how my prior profession exactly moved to the AR15/carbine 5.56. I do know there were several considerations/issues which were being discussed.

Historically, some departments had the HK MP5 subguns, whether in 9mm/.40/10mm as I recall. Many of the departments/agencies at the very least had the 12 gauge shotguns as long guns (most probably still do).

The knowledge I'm lacking is, somehow, the 5.56/.223 AR15 carbines took off while the 9mm/.40/.45ACP subguns pretty much died out (again, in LE use). The Ruger Mini-14 5.56mm had a small following but the AR15 platform really got the market with many brands available (the AR15 might have been an open/no-patent-limiting design).

Ballistically, it's my understanding the 5.56/.223 may be good for both shorter and longer distances vs. pistol caliber carbines, but this is just more my ignorance or what I remember being told.

If anybody out there might elaborate, I'd appreciate it.

44caliberkid · May 3, 2023, 08:43 PM

Yesterday I watched a YouTube video calling for Ruger to bring back the Deerfield 44 magnum carbine. I think those would sell almost as good as the 9mm PCC. Maybe offer it in 357 also. Maybe Henry should have gone that route instead of 9mm.

ballardw · May 3, 2023, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-2

The knowledge I'm lacking is, somehow, the 5.56/.223 AR15 carbines took off while the 9mm/.40/.45ACP subguns pretty much died out (again, in LE use).

May have been some element of access to surplus military hardware, at least actual M-16/ M-4 versions that would be select fire. Plus with veterans the equipment was more or less familiar to many.

MarkCO · May 4, 2023, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Ballistically, it's my understanding the 5.56/.223 may be good for both shorter and longer distances vs. pistol caliber carbines, but this is just more my ignorance or what I remember being told.

If anybody out there might elaborate, I'd appreciate it.

Reliability and lethality are two big factors. There are not a lot of shootings with 9mm PCCs to look at, in terms of effectiveness between a 9mm handgun and a .223 Carbine. Most ballistics experts will argue about the nuances of caliber stopping power effectiveness. But in reality, there are a lot of variables and when the practicality is looked at, a .223 with a proper bullet is about 3 times more effective at stopping a threat than a 9mm handgun (all things being equal and not a perfect handgun shot). When you add 30% more energy to that pistol bullet, you don't close that gap, but you do cut into it. When you add in the factor that a PCC is, on average, about 4 times more accurate than a 9mm pistol, you again, cut that gap, but still not closed. The sub-gun training, by most departments was sub-par.

Blowback 9mm PCCs, in general, are less reliable than .223 Carbines. They also need more cleaning and maintenance.

From contact to 100 yards, I have very close to the same accuracy and rate of fire from a .223 Carbine and a 9mm Carbine. Past 100 yards, the 9mm falls off pretty fast, while the .223 is going to be effective past that distance. But, if you look at the engagement distance of urban police shootings, very few are past 100 yards. The 9mm offers less concussion indoors as well. Trade-offs for sure. But I believe the PCCs of today are more accurate, reliable and effective than the sub-guns of the 1980s and 1990s, by a good margin.

Ralph Allen · May 5, 2023, 01:57 PM

Rojack79,
Saw that nobody said anything about the CZ Scorpion except a platform that uses their mags. Don't think CZ is still making the 9mm PCC in the Scorpion model, but if you can find one, snatch that baby up. I bought one of the early ones and have upgraded the trigger and safety selector with HB Industries parts. It runs flawlessly with anything you care to put through it. Reloads, factory standard, +P etc. The only issue I've ever had with mine were the original magazines cracking. CZ warrantied every single one of these no questions asked. Have had ZERO problems with the mags since then. Great gun.
Ralph

Armybrat · May 5, 2023, 08:41 PM

The Ruger PCC 9mm is a neat companion for my SR9….

FITASC · May 8, 2023, 08:15 PM

Agree! I like my Ruger 9mm carbine with the Glock adapter for the 32 round mags

Hammerhead · June 24, 2023, 02:00 PM

I've owned quite a few, 2 Marlins, Olympic 9mm AR, the original Ruger police carbine and now the Ruger PC.
All have been reliable and accurate. Love the PCCs.

**44 AMP** · June 24, 2023, 04:21 PM

Quote:

The knowledge I'm lacking is, somehow, the 5.56/.223 AR15 carbines took off while the 9mm/.40/.45ACP subguns pretty much died out (again, in LE use).

At least some of the reason was that the Fed supplied a lot of police depts with M16s/M4s at little or no cost, and when those were considered worn out and replaced they were essentially replaced in kind with the same rifles, and no doubt a number of the originals are still in service somewhere.

I've had a number of pistol caliber semi auto carbines, still have one, but cannot have any more, thanks to unser Furher..pardon me, our Governor and his law prohibiting all future purchases of "semi automatic assault rifles". And their magazines...

I can keep mine, till I pass away, but cannot buy any more or sell mine in this state. And while I'm not sure, I don't think my kids can inherit it, in this state, either.

At least I'm not required to give a stiff arm salute.....yet.....

Sharkbite · June 24, 2023, 08:11 PM

Quote:

The knowledge I'm lacking is, somehow, the 5.56/.223 AR15 carbines took off while the 9mm/.40/.45ACP subguns pretty much died out (again, in LE use).

About the only thing a PCC does better then a 5.56 (of similar size) is suppress. A 5.56 (even with a good can) is still loud indoors. A 9mm with subsonic ammo can be pretty dang quiet suppressed.

With 20+ years of GWOT behind us, most Tac team guys in LE have lots of time with the M4 platform. So they get a weapon they already know and use well, with superior ballistics. They are all wearing highend ear pro/comms so making the gun super quiet is less important then most people think.

So the 5.56 guns hit harder, penetrate less, make longer range hits easier (not super common, but happens). All improve on the performance of a PCC.

May 3, 2023, 07:39 PM	#53
L-2 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2004 Location: Nevada Posts: 523	I'm sorry to say, I don't know the history of how my prior profession exactly moved to the AR15/carbine 5.56. I do know there were several considerations/issues which were being discussed. Historically, some departments had the HK MP5 subguns, whether in 9mm/.40/10mm as I recall. Many of the departments/agencies at the very least had the 12 gauge shotguns as long guns (most probably still do). The knowledge I'm lacking is, somehow, the 5.56/.223 AR15 carbines took off while the 9mm/.40/.45ACP subguns pretty much died out (again, in LE use). The Ruger Mini-14 5.56mm had a small following but the AR15 platform really got the market with many brands available (the AR15 might have been an open/no-patent-limiting design). Ballistically, it's my understanding the 5.56/.223 may be good for both shorter and longer distances vs. pistol caliber carbines, but this is just more my ignorance or what I remember being told. If anybody out there might elaborate, I'd appreciate it. __________________ (former) Glock Armorer 1911 Armorer LEO (retired)

May 8, 2023, 08:15 PM	#59
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	Agree! I like my Ruger 9mm carbine with the Glock adapter for the 32 round mags __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

May 3, 2023, 08:43 PM	#54
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,104	Yesterday I watched a YouTube video calling for Ruger to bring back the Deerfield 44 magnum carbine. I think those would sell almost as good as the 9mm PCC. Maybe offer it in 357 also. Maybe Henry should have gone that route instead of 9mm.

May 5, 2023, 01:57 PM	#57
Ralph Allen Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2007 Posts: 436	Rojack79, Saw that nobody said anything about the CZ Scorpion except a platform that uses their mags. Don't think CZ is still making the 9mm PCC in the Scorpion model, but if you can find one, snatch that baby up. I bought one of the early ones and have upgraded the trigger and safety selector with HB Industries parts. It runs flawlessly with anything you care to put through it. Reloads, factory standard, +P etc. The only issue I've ever had with mine were the original magazines cracking. CZ warrantied every single one of these no questions asked. Have had ZERO problems with the mags since then. Great gun. Ralph

June 24, 2023, 02:00 PM	#60
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	I've owned quite a few, 2 Marlins, Olympic 9mm AR, the original Ruger police carbine and now the Ruger PC. All have been reliable and accurate. Love the PCCs.