Squibs, Silhouette powder and rain

[MikeSRuth]

Good day folks, I have about 5 years reloading experience now and been fairly successful at it. Most of that has been .223 rifle and a little bit of .45 ACP.

Recently I have been much more active with pistol using Ramshot Silhouette and Autocomp Powders for 9MM, 38spc, 357Mag and 45.ACP. ..45 Colt is on my list next.

The reason I'm posting is a serious issue that just cropped up. I had both a .38spc and a .45 ACP squib yesterday and frankly I feel damn lucky because I personally made a huge mistake. I dropped the hammer on the .38 and nothing happen, I did not feel anything. and there was a good dimple on the round. The BIG mistake was I did not unload the case and just rolled it over to the next thinking I just had a FTF. Dropped the hammer and felt a puff. I knew then of course I had a squib. Thank god I did. At that point I unloaded the rounds and realize that I just had a double squib. The first round was just barely sticking out the crown.

OK, so Set that gun aside and later in the session brought out the .45 ACP and first shot an incredibly light recoil and the case was ejected. I stopped and inspected the case and saw what I want to say looked like wet powder.
Bullet was just past the chamber.

So my thought and question is it has been raining on and off here in So Cal for the past month and cold. My powder is only opened to load the hoper and then sealed back up. The hopper is only open long enough for me to run through adjusting the drop charge. This weather is the first time I have reloaded in it. Otherwise it's always been dry and fairly warm out.
I'm wondering if the Silhouette powder has taken on moisture.
The powder seems to look OK, pours OK doesn't stick on anything.

Would appreciate any thoughts on this or experiences similar.

I will pull all of the .38 spc apart later today. Not taking a chance as I got real lucky extracting the squibs. Much easier to extract from a Semi Barrel.

I'll load up a couple this morning and see what happens after inspecting the pulls. If I effed up I'll say so.

[mikejonestkd]

Please let us know more about the load data for the 38s and 45s.
what is your powder charge and bullet weight for each of them?

[44 AMP]

I don't use that poweder, I don't know that powder, but a few rainy days (even in So Cal ) shouldn't affect the powder.

There are 3 main factors in squibs,
not enough powder (or the wrong kind)
powder doesn't get lit properly (primer issue? Gun issue?)
powder gets lit, but doesn't burn correctly. (powder issue? loading issue??)

can be one factor, can be all 3 mixed together.

Any (and EVERY) time you don't get the "bang" you expect, the recoil you expect, and don't see the bullet strike your target, you STOP!!! Right then...

You were incredibly LUCKY to have gotten 2 squibs in a row in your revolver. If that SECOND round you fired after the first one "wasn't right" had been a normal full power round, you could have injured (possibly seriously) and your gun could have been damaged, possibly destroyed!

There is also a second, hidden danger in a squib round.... and that is the powder charge. IF the squib is the result of not enough powder (or no powder) WHERE DID THE MISSING POWDER GO????

With some cases and powders, where case capacity is large and powder volume is small, there is room in the case for a double (sometimes triple) powder charge. IF you get a squib due to lack of powder, that powder went somewhere in your loading process. MAYBE it simply stayed in the hopper, and your powder dump was simply incomplete.

OR, MAYBE it hung up in the drop mechanism and then MAYBE dropped into another case, ALONG WITH THE NORMAL CHARGE, creating a DANGEROUS OVERLOAD.

You don't know, and since you don't know ALL rounds in that batch are suspect, and should NOT be fired.

There is training that teaches when something goes wrong, you to do a failure drill (Tap, rack, bang in semis) and keep going. Sound advice for when someone is shooting at you. Decent advice when you are training for when someone is shooting at you, where failure drills are a planned part of the training. BUT when no one is shooting at you, and the failure is REAL and not a drill, you need to STOP, right there. Training is now over for the day.

Stopping and figuring out what went wrong is VERY important. Figuring out why what went wrong, went wrong is also important, but not as immediate.

Sorry I can't tell you with any certainty what caused your problem, but I do feel certain that it wasn't a wet cool raining month in what is normally a warm dry place.

[MikeSRuth]

Ah yes load data.
So for the .38 I used Ramshot Silhouette with 158gn LSWC over 5.6Gn, OAL 1.477 which is Book high load

The .45 was a 230Gn RN FMJ and Silhouette at 6.6gn OAL 1.237 which is low book but I'm happy with that.

Cases are under max spec length, CCi Small pistol #300 for both.

I won't have info on the pulled cartridges until later today.

[Marco Califo]

I suspect you used a volumetric powder measure on a press (progressive or turret).
I found a way to improve Powder Control: I use an RCBS Chargemaster Combo to weigh out the charges, then charge the case and seat the bullet. Not the fastest, but it gives various opportunities to see the correct charge weighed, and its volume in the case.

[tangolima]

Do you wet tumble your brass?

-TL

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[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by MIkeSRuth

Cases are under max spec length

How much under? 45 Auto brass has a SAAMI specification of 0.888" to 0.898". The normal trim length is the middle at 0.893". The problem is that, unlike high-pressure rifle cases, 45 Auto cases don't stick to the chamber during firing, so they wind back up in the chamber and get shorter and fatter, and resizing usually falls about half a thousandth short of bringing it back to pre-fired length, and it loses another half a thousandth every load cycle. So, if the brass has been used a good bit, it can wind up well below 0.888" and, in some guns, that can lead to failures to fire properly.

The wet look of your powder may be from the primer having vaporized nitrocellulose at the grain surface, letting some nitroglycerin that resides in a nitrocellulose matrix in double-base powders come to the surface. It is oily and wet looking¹. However, that scenario (burning off the outer layer) usually means you burn off any graphite or other grain coating, too, leaving the powder looking yellow, so it wasn't yellow it seems more like the primer didn't light up with full enthusiasm.

Note that the CCI #300 are large pistol primers. You must be using #500 if your's are small pistol. Sometimes, with ignition issues, it is best to move to a magnum primer (#550) unless your guns have had springs lightened as part of a trigger job. Primers not seated firmly can exhibit delayed or slow, or incomplete ignition. The Navy determined that for ignition reliability, primers should be crushed about 0.003" deeper beyond the point the anvil feet find the bottom of the primer pocket for ignition reliability. I've seen a couple of YouTube videos demonstrating that not being an advantage, but they were fired with a rifle that probably has a good high-power main spring that may do some of its own crushing. For handgun firing pins, I would ensure the crush.

¹ I have also seen wet-looking powder (black, not yellow) when pulling bullets from cases containing powder that was breaking down (used up its stabilizer). If found out this powder was going bad because of catsneeze firing of some rounds). In your case, unless your powder is old and has been improperly exposed to heat or light, that's not expected but is not impossible, as some powder lots occasionally do break down prematurely. Check the smell of your powder for the acrid nitric acid scent. Pour some onto a piece of white paper and roll it around a little bit, then pour it back into the bottle. Check to be sure no reddish powder or coloring is left behind on the paper. Those two things, scent and red powder would be indicators the powder is going bad.

[MikeSRuth]

OK first I want to thank all of you for the technical repsonse and time to do that. Much appreciated.

Second as for the powder drop. I use a simple Lee Perfect powder measure, I get my weight adjusted on a Digital scale and then once close I dial it in against a beem scale. I dbl check weights about every 10 rounds.

When I charge I charge directly from the drop, no funnel. straight into the case and I visualy look at each and every one before seating a bullet.

As for the diagnosis...I pulled the rounds I had left and interestingly out of 10 total, 5 were wet, 5 were absolutely dry. I'll attach a couple pictures.
the weight of the dry charges were spot on what I dropped in them.


So the cause is moisture, how did it get into the case? I don't know. do I wet Tumble yes I do, and after the tumble I have built an AIR BOX that I put the cases in and circulate warm air for roughly two to three hours.

I have never in all my time had this occur.

I will assume that, the cases were not completely dry, at least some since they all came from the same batch drying.

Obviously I will be scrutinizing my drying procedure.

[tangolima]

One possibility is the brass was not completely dry from the wet tumbling when you loaded. Water can trap in the primer flash hole and take forever to dry out. When I was still wet tumbling, I tapped the brass on bench to "shake" out the water in the flash hole, then I left brass to air dry for at least 24 hours.

I hardly do tumbling any more, wet or dry, as I don't shoot enough rounds to justify the trouble. I just wipe down the brass with paper towel soaked with denatured alcohol before resizing.

-TL

PS. We shot on an outdoor range yesterday. It was raining and a few of my .223 brass were wet in puddle. I deprimed them to let them dry. 24 hours later a couple of them are still wet inside. One actually has water trapped in the flash hole.

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[Nick_C_S]

My first, only, and likely last pound of Ramshot Silhouette went bad on me. I don't know if there's any connection with your experience, but here's my original post about it from May 4th last year. You can decide:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=614681

Silhouette first purchased 2/28/19. First opened 3/22/19. Lot # 0405172303.

I always immediately return the propellant from the hopper to its original container after loading. Propellants are always stored indoors under climate control. No other propellants in my possession seem to be problematic.

[jetinteriorguy]

If you don’t deprime before wet tumbling I’d say there’s your problem. Getting the primer out makes a big difference when drying. I first roll my wet brass on a towel to dry most of the water on the outside, then put them on a dedicated cookie sheet in a single layer and pop them in the oven at 175 for an hour. After this I tumble in crushed walnut with Nufinish for an hour for a final shiny protective coating.

[Recycled bullet]

That's incredibly scary and I am glad for you and everyone around you that your guns did not explode with the barrel obstruction.

I dry my brass after wet tumbling in metal trays I made from quarter inch hardware cloth, get the leather gloves and the tin snips and cut and bend to fit inside the toaster oven.

I'll usually run thirty minutes at three hundred degrees then run it overnight at two hundred twenty five and the next morning is shiny dry awesomeness.

[MikeSRuth]

Thanks to all that added to this.

I do de prime before tumble, so the flash holes are open.

I'm taking a a few cartridges today out and EXPECTING them all to go bang!

I'll let you all know.

Mike

Oh and I have been using the Silhouette for a couple years and really never had any issues with it. Seems to be a good powder.

[mehavey]

FWIW:
If I have wet cases for any reason (say from a rare use of ultrasonic
and/or BP washing), I'll dry them in the oven at 170 for an hour.

[tangolima]

Even with the spent prime removed, the flash hole can well be "plugged" by water trapped there by surface tension. It impedes air flow and takes forever to dry without external assistance. I chose to "tap" this bit of water out to make sure the hole is clear. Then it takes about 24 hours to air dry.

Compressed air can be used to clear the hole. But I don't want that lead compound loaded water to spray everywhere. Oven works but not the same oven for food. I had cancer once and don't want to have another go with it.

So I stop tumbling. On rare occasions that I have wet brass and am in hurry to load, I tap out the water and take the opportunity to anneal, so that the heat helps dry out the inside of the brass. From time to time, bit of steam shoots out.

-TL

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[Unclenick]

Mike,

Per Nick C S's experience, your "wet" powder in the images could be either water or breakdown-related. Breakdown initiates randomly, so all cartridges don't go at the same time. So, just to make sure this is a trapped water problem and not a breakdown problem, I hope you left the wet powder out where it could dry. If it dries out, it can still be used. If it refuses to dry and stays wet and clumped, then it is breaking down.

On the other side of the equation, if you loaded it recently and if the powder in the container shows no sign of clumps in it anywhere, then the water explanation is most likely.

These days I find I use wet tumbling most often. Cleaned yellow brass is easier to spot in the grass. Dry tumbling cleans it for spotting purposes, too, but I have grown cautious about the dust. I separate the cases from the pins using a Berry's separator that sits on a 5-gallon paint bucket that catches the pins. That rotary action seems to get most of the loose water out. Then, like TL, I tap any remaining water out. I do it on a terrycloth rag that is on a firm surface, and I generally get a few cases that leave a wet spot on it because some water was still trapped in them, despite the separator tumbling. I don't bother with hot air drying unless I am cycling the brass through some sort of repeated-use testing. I normally just put them in an old darkroom tray and let them sit on a shelf for a few weeks with a baker's flour sack cloth towel for a dust cover. I have enough brass that a lot of them could sit for a couple of years before I need them again, so I rebox them when I get around to it and don't have any need to rush it.

I hope your subsequent shooting went normally.

[totaldla]

Cci300 is large pistol - isn't your 38 small pistol? CCI500 are standard small pistol.

Silhouette runs best in 9mm as the pressure is high enough to get complete combustion. It works in 45acp pretty well only at the top end of the load range. I would be surprised if it worked ok in 38spl.
Silhouette has a negative temp coefficient - pressures go up when it is cold, down when it is hot.

I burn a lot of Sil, mainly because it is cheap. I've never had any problems with it. I've been using it since 2008.

[MikeSRuth]

To clarify on the primer, yes I am using CCI #500 Small Pistol for both the .38 and .45

CCI #300 Large for some of the .45. I have cases of both sizes.

Also need to add that I have not reported back on the new loads as the session was cancelled last week, so...Hopefully I'll get the tests done Friday or Saturday this weekend.

[Nick_C_S]

Mike,

Just to let you know, my Silhouette looked like your pics - except not as bad.

[Unclenick]

Did you weigh a wet charge? If was heavier than thrown, it is water, but if it's the same weight as thrown and none is left stuck in the case, then deterioration seems likely.

[MikeSRuth]

All righty folks I had a chance to test again. The verdict is I'm just not happy with the silhouette for .38 spc. It's a strange deal in that I am using it for 9MM and 45 just fine. But the 38's just are weak as hell. Now my time and cost add up so I just decided for now to go with Tite Group. Very happy with that for both the 38 and 357 Mag.

with that said I have a new not so much problem but curiosity, new thread Unique and 115G 9MM.

Take care all.

[ghbucky]

I just read through this.

One question: do you allow powder to sit in your hopper after a loading session?

I learned the hard way that powder that sits in a hopper will degrade.

[jetinteriorguy]

Titegroup works great but be extra careful not to get an accidental double charge, or even an overcharge. It gets very spikey and takes up very little space in the huge .39sp case so it’s easy not to notice an over charge. I speak from experience, an accidental double charge while loading on my Loadmaster cost me my favorite.357. It wasn’t because of the machine but because of my stupidity in handling a malfunction in the Loadmaster. Complacency has no place on the loading bench, and I’ve been loading since the mid eighties without any incident. Luckily the only injury was my pride.

[hdwhit]

All of the foregoing is useful, but the bottom line is that if you had two quibs from two different calibers, your reloading procedures are woefully inadequate.

How many times do you verify that the case is charged? I'm not talking about using a "powder cop" die, but when do you actually put an eyeball on the case to ensure it has powder - and an adequate amount?

I have been reloading for 44 years. I have had zero squibs. In part this is due to the fact my written reloading procedures (and associated checklist) require me to put an eyeball on the charged case three times before the bullet is seated.

You need to establish written reloading procedures that you will follow every time and a checklist where you check off every step.

I know this seems like a burden, but two sqibs should be a warning to you that if you don't make some significant changes, your nickname in the future may be "One Eyed Jack".

[Electrod47]

Just a short aside, in your initial comment you were concerned that humidity had gotten into your powder from the rainy weather. I'm here in Mississippi and all my loading and powder storage takes place in a large metal car barn. Average humidity is 80+% on a normal hot sunny day. I try to load on days less than that but, I have loaded hundreds of rounds on days in the 90% range in the un air conditioned barn. Ball powders, flake powders you name it. I doubt gun powders are hydroscopic in nature to begin with. I have never had that problem you describe.