Plated vs Jacketed

[akinswi]

I was wondering how much more barrel life in a 9mm barrel you would get out of using Plated bullets vs Jacketed?

[Shadow9mm]

One wound have to establish a base line barrel life. Which can vary from manufacturer, and depending on the how hot the loads are.

[Marco Califo]

I do not think there would be a material difference. Plating can be thicker than copper jackets. I have put over 2,000 rounds through a Glock 26, and have no fears about barrel life. If I did wear it out, a new factory barrel is around $100. There are much more important things to worry about.

[Shadow9mm]

Jacketed is work hardened in the forming process, plated is softer. I think that is where the OP was coming from

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

I do not think there would be a material difference. Plating can be thicker than copper jackets. I have put over 2,000 rounds through a Glock 26, and have no fears about barrel life. If I did wear it out, a new factory barrel is around $100. There are much more important things to worry about.

Pretty much this. When I was sponsored by Xtreme, we kind of tried to do a test. I determined that it was not going to be within an acceptable margin of error and stopped.

Powder used, max temps and moisture are bigger players. It is a little bit most likely, but not enough to matter in a pistol barrel, where most plated bullets are utilized.

Barrels are cheap compared to the bullets. Plated, Coated or Jacketed, pick the bullet that works for you in terms of ease of loading, cost and accuracy and IF you happen to wear out a pistol barrel, buy a new one.

[44 AMP]

Barrels are made of steel.
Bullets are made of ...something softer than steel...

When a harder material is rubs on a softer one, the softer one is what wears.

IT isn't the BULLETS that wear out the barrel, it is the heat/pressure of firing.

The higher the intensity of the firing, the greater the effect (more rapid= wear per round count).

A rifle barrel used entirely in slow fire will last X,000 rounds before wear begins to affect its performance. An identical barrel firing the same ammuntion, used for rapid fire, will not last as many rounds before wear has an effect. It's the HEAT and Pressure of the gas, "cutting" the steel.

The same process is at work with handgun barrels. Its just generally "slower" due to lower temps and pressures.

Under lab conditions, I'm sure you could run a test, and find a measurable difference between two barrels shooting the same load one with jacketed and one with plated bullets. Now, the question is, is that difference going to be something significant, or just a difference in numbers on paper?

For example, if the jacketed bullet barrel is judged worn out at 8,637 rounds and the plated bullet test barrel takes 9,210 to reach the same point, does that matter from a practical standpoint? (numbers for illustration only)

The other point to consider is, how well will your test barrels reflect/represent the actual in use barrels of other guns??

[akinswi]

Then why can you shoot 100,000 rds of lead cast bullets in a pistol barrel vs a plated vs jacketed. You almost could never wear a barrel shooting cast lead.

So its just not the heat and pressure. Lead is a metal too. Thats argument here, most jacketed bullets have thicker jacket vs a plated bullet the copper is applied chemically I believe. So its closer to a cast lead bullet than a jacketed one.



To say there isnt a difference to me makes absolutely no sense. There absolutely has to be a difference a noticeable one at that.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by akinswi

Then why can you shoot 100,000 rds of lead cast bullets in a pistol barrel vs a plated vs jacketed. You almost could never wear a barrel shooting cast lead.

So its just not the heat and pressure. Lead is a metal too. Thats argument here, most jacketed bullets have thicker jacket vs a plated bullet the copper is applied chemically I believe. So its closer to a cast lead bullet than a jacketed one.



To say there isnt a difference to me makes absolutely no sense. There absolutely has to be a difference a noticeable one at that.

Akinswi. I think this a very interesting question and am very curious to know the answer myself. But we are going to have to define a number of things if we want an answer.

What cartridge are we talking about? 9mm, 38spl, 357 mag, 500 s&w mag? Because pressure is a big part of the equation.

What are we using as a base line for barrel life with the specified cartridge. Are we comparing to lead,? Or just jacketed vs plated?

What are we definining as barrel life? Are we talking the rifling stripped out and gone? A specific ammount of the lands worn off? Or the barrel, no longer meeting a certain accuracy standard?

We need exact criteria if we want an exact answer. Otherwise it will be all guessing.

[Marco Califo]

OP, It is copper vs steel friction either way.
I don't think your belief is based on facts of physics.
If you are shooting 100,000 rounds, you will spend exponentially more on ammo than a new barrel.
So why does it matter to you? It does not matter to me.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

OP, It is copper vs steel friction either way.
I don't think your belief is based on facts of physics.
If you are shooting 100,000 rounds, you will spend exponentially more on ammo than a new barrel.
So why does it matter to you? It does not matter to me.

Yes and no. Jacketed bullets are work hardened in the forming process. So a copper jacket will be harder than copper plating if we are talking pure copper. But many jsckets and some platings are alloyed to reduce copper fouling.

Why your curious is a valid question too. It will help us understand how to consruct a scenario for comparison.

[Marco Califo]

Work hardening happens to brass, not copper.
Hardened brass is still softer than steel. Some bullet jackets do include other elements, gilding metal.
Absent scientific facts for this alleged increased friction, I do not see value in "theories". If it was true what difference would it make to anyone, their shooting, or component selections? Nada, zero, zip, zilch. I think you are looking too hard for a problem that does not exist.

[akinswi]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

Work hardening happens to brass, not copper.
Hardened brass is still softer than steel. Some bullet jackets do include other elements, gilding metal.
Absent scientific facts for this alleged increased friction, I do not see value in "theories". If it was true what difference would it make to anyone, their shooting, or component selections? Nada, zero, zip, zilch. I think you are looking too hard for a problem that does not exist.

I rather not change barrels if I dont have too.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

Work hardening happens to brass, not copper.
Hardened brass is still softer than steel. Some bullet jackets do include other elements, gilding metal.
Absent scientific facts for this alleged increased friction, I do not see value in "theories". If it was true what difference would it make to anyone, their shooting, or component selections? Nada, zero, zip, zilch. I think you are looking too hard for a problem that does not exist.

It is a valid question. Does bullet material effect barrel life, and if so to what degree? My answer is, i dont know. Thus i cannot say if it is significant or not.

Most metals, including copper, can work harden according to my quick search. And seeing as jackets are formed in a manner not dissimilar from casings, they are most likely work hardened as well. How much harder? Another good question to which i do not have an answer.

However i can say for a fact, that i would considering changing bullet types to save some barrel life.

[Unclenick]

Copper and other copper alloys also harden by working. It is just that work-hardened brass is harder than work-hardened pure copper. You can find tables of work-hardening for different copper alloys online. Work-hardening is how ancient Egyptian copper blade weapons were made. I don't know their exact alloy composition, though.

The main point to be added here is that bullet jackets are made from gilding metal, which is a brass alloy. Basically, it is 5% zinc (red brass), whereas commercial cartridge cases (yellow brasses) run from 20% to 30% typically, with 40% (Muntz metal) having been used during wartime and by a few odds and ends of manufacturers at different times.

So, being a brass alloy, bullet jackets can and do get harder than plated-on copper (Berry's, for example) or plated-on gilding alloy (Gold Dot, for example) jackets.

Does it matter how hard a bullet is? Yes. The military studied this and found during WWII that firing 30-06 armor-piercing ammunition would shorten rifle barrel life by up to about 30% as compared to jacketed lead ball ammo. These bullets have a hardened core under the jacket, so the throat and bore have to work harder to deform the surface to engrave rifling. This raises start pressure, which means the throat will endure somewhat longer exposure to peak pressures and temperatures. Shooting solid copper and bronze bullets should exhibit some of the same effects, but I don't know how much. I don't know the start pressure numbers for the AP ammo, though I would expect it to be the hardest of the lot because of the core material.

Conversely to AP, lead bullets usually exhibit lower start pressure than jacketed bullets so that the reverse effect can be observed. However, some odd exceptions come up. A number of the old revolver shooters, like Skeeter Skelton, commented that they thought lead usually raised pressure more than jacketed bullets did in hot loads, possibly due to being upset into filling out a forcing cone before having to be squeezed down again into the bore. Possibly just because they weren't allowing for cast bullets to be longer and take up more powder space than jacketed or swaged bullets. So I don't think we'll know the answer there. A military match team armorer told me he expected hardball barrels in 45 Auto to last about 25,000 rounds, while softball took forever to wear out throats and rifling. He guessed they could go 100,000 rounds, depending on the load, though that estimate, while based on great experience, is anecdotal.

There is a set of photos on page 166 in Ed McGivern's book, Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, that show ragged holes from 22 LR machine rest groups fired at 20 yards from a K-22 revolver with over 200,000 rounds through it. He shows groups before and after he sent it to the factory for "adjustment" that included a new cylinder stop (I had previously misremembered that it included a barrel change, but apparently that was deemed unnecessary). This is followed by the same groups repeated after the gun came back from the factory, and they don't look any different. The .22 LR runs at a similar pressure to the 45 Auto but has rifling that is only about half as tall, making the throat theoretically easier to wear down, and yet that gun clearly was not worn out at the time of the tests.

[44 AMP]

Work hardening happens to brass, not copper.

I believe work hardening happens to all metals, but there is a huge difference in how soon the effect is noticeable. Copper is very "slow" to work harden. Zinc is not. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.

I rather not change barrels if I dont have too.

I can understand that. Reality is that, absent some really unusual situation, you will spend several times the cost of the gun buying enough ammo or components to wear out a barrel.

Do be aware that a badly fouled barrel can look "worn out" and can shoot "worn out", while not actually being worn out.

[Shadow9mm]

So in theory, the Russian ammo with mikd steel cores, being harder than lead, would be harder on a barrel, but maybe not to tee degree of AP with its hard steel core. Possibly similar to solid copper.

[MarkCO]

Except Aluminum, all of the metals work harden some. Brass more than copper, but it does. Heck, I am working on a project that involved work hardening of copper. Spent 4 hours on the SEM yesterday.

Steel jacketed bullets wear a barrel more than brass jacketed, which wears a barrel more than copper jacketed which wears a bullet a little more than copper plated. It is not theory, it is real. The differences, like Shadow9mm said, are dependent on all the related variables. Between copper jacketed and copper plated, the difference is pretty small.

[Shadow9mm]

So i contacted faxon firearms, who make barrels among other things. I saw a cool series with them and inrange tv on youtube where they talked barrel science. This was their response.

"Thank you for taking the time to contact us!  That is a compelling question, but unfortunately, the answer is likely less than satisfying.   While there are differences in hardness between cast lead, copper plated lead, and copper jacketed bullets (even significant differences like between a soft cast lead and a jacketed bullet), they are all much softer than the barrel steel.  Unfortunately, I don't have any projectiles that I can measure at the moment, and most of the data out there for bullets is measured in BHN (Brinell scale) rather than HRc (Rockwell c) so it can't really be converted.   Generally handgun barrels are around 45 HRc and most projectiles are between 10 and 30 BHN.  Handgun projectiles are usually 10 - 14 BHN while rifle projectiles are usually 20 and up.   The lowest hardness that has a conversion to HRc on the tables I have available is 242 BHN which equates to 23.1 HRc.  This disparity in hardness means that while, yes, there technically is a greater chance of wear from a 14 BHN bullet over a 10 BHN bullet, it is so negligible as to be immeasurable.  This disparity results mostly since bullet materials need to be soft enough to engage fully with the rifling and fully obturate for a proper gas seal.  Significantly harder materials that could cause a significant amount of increased wear on the bore, will not properly obturate or engage the rifling, so they are generally not used in projectiles (though they can be used in bullet cores like a tungsten penetrator). 


With all of that being said, projectile technology isn't exactly our area of expertise, so you may want to reach out to some bullet makers to see if they have any data on interactions with rifling and wear mitigation efforts or if that is even considered when designing a projectile.  


Regards,"

[FITASC]

Then why can you shoot 100,000 rds of lead cast bullets in a pistol barrel vs a plated vs jacketed. You almost could never wear a barrel shooting cast lead.

Generally speaking, most cast lead loads tend to be shot at lower velocities and pressures so as to avoid leading

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by FITASC

Generally speaking, most cast lead loads tend to be shot at lower velocities and pressures so as to avoid leading

Ehhhh, you dont start needing gas check on lead bullets until around 1400 to 1600fps depending on who you ask. Dont know that i would call that "lower velocities"

[FITASC]

I am thinking more along the lines of my swaged HBWCs

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by FITASC

I am thinking more along the lines of my swaged HBWCs

True, pushing wad cutters hard usually does not end well. We have not settles on a bullet style guess i presumed round nose.

[MarkCO]

So I contacted faxon firearms, who make barrels among other things.

When you have a barrel maker that is a member, posting, and is also a court sanctioned ballistics expert. I'm so hurt. (sarcasm)

[Shadow9mm]

2nd response from Faxon. really goof stuff. Based on the cost of ammo, even hand loads, my handgun barrels will probably have plenty of life left in them when i pass them on to my kids. It still makes me wonder though how far lead bullets could extend that barrel life.

one other though I had, is with plated bullets most makers list 1250fps as a max velocity, but I have never seen a jacketed bullet with a velocity listed, other than hollow points for proper expansion ranges. I wonder if it is due to the thickness, or the softness of the plating itself.

"No worries! I'm glad I could at least give some input.

I can certainly see a solid steel core causing that kind of wear, especially on older military barrels and with a cartridge as hot as .30-06. I would be interested to see the test repeated with more modern treatments such as Nitride or Chrome lining. For what it's worth, I have yet to see a barrel get shot out in all of the testing we do. A few of our FX-19 handguns are closing in on 40,000 rounds with no discernable wear on the bore and that is with almost exclusively jacketed ammunition (though all of it was lead core). We have a couple of demo machine guns (5.56) that are closing on 60,000 rounds with normal wear to the throat and gas port. While not as precise as when they started, they are still combat accurate (3-4 MOA) even with the wear patterns. They had a mix of standard copper jacket, M855 spec (mild steel core), and bi-metal jacket ammo through them so we weren't exactly going easy on them.

Based on the bits of info I do know about pistol bullets, the lower pressure and velocity generally mean wear is minimal and the gases behind the bullet tend to be the largest factor to bore erosion. I would hypothesize that a modern pistol barrel with some form of treatment (nitride, nDLC, etc.) should have a lifespan in excess of 100,000 rounds when using jacketed ammunition with a relatively soft core.

I can see the point that there may be some work-hardening happening when the jacket is rolled over the core, but I don't know what hardness exactly the plating or jacket is at. I believe you can usually "choose" what hardness you want a given plating material to be so it could very well be that plated bullets are spec'd to have the same final hardness as jacketed bullets. If the plating and jacket are of equal hardness, then it will come down to the density/hardness of the core material since that will be what the bore is actually working against. This is all fairly far outside my normal bailiwick and not something I consider myself an expert in so please take this all cum grano salis.

Regards,
"

[44 AMP]

Except Aluminum, all of the metals work harden some.

Aluminum work hardens, and VERY rapidly. Easy to do, crush an aluminum can, then bend it back and forth, and after a short time it will break in the middle, due to the metal work hardening.