454 and 460 65K load data

[1972RedNeck]

I am trying to find max loads for 454 Casull and 460 S&W. Specifically for 240 and 300 gr Hornady XTP mag bullets and H110 powder. All I can find is up to about 56K PSI. I want loads pushing up to 65K PSI.

Where can I find this data? Hornady and Hodgon have been no help. I am rather new to reloading and have no idea how to "work up" a load over published data and no courage to go over published data.

Any suggestions were to find full pressure data?

[nhyrum]

Published data now adays is incredibly conservative, thanks to a litigious society and anxious lawyers.

Max loads are going to be gun and component specific, so learn pressure signs, and know your primers

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

[gwpercle]

The only way you are going to get to MAX 65K Loads is to beg , borrow , rent/lease or buy pressure testing equipment and start pushing that envelope ... I think Dick Casull had to do this when he was developing the 454 Casull .
I don't have a simple answer for you and you might search out a pressure testing lab and see if they would/could test pressures of your ++P++ Loads .
You could do it like Elmer Keith did when working up the new 44 Magnum ...
read about his experiments in his book "Sixguns" ... very interesting !
Gary

[44 AMP]

Elmer was originally looking for a .45 Magnum, but went to the .44 bore due to the limitations of the guns he had to work with.

[Nathan]

If Hodgdon data doesn’t go to 65k - 5%, I would call them and ask why. Pistol powders are quite temperature sensitive. That may be why.

I wouldn’t just load it hotter. I suspect there is a good reason not to load revolvers to 65k!

What primers are you using?

[Jim Watson]

There is some statistical massaging done for SAAMI compliance.
Apparently the manufacturers could not increase the loads to the MAP without one of the other figures of merit being exceeded.

Buffalo Bore is noted for crowding the maximum and even they say:
"The .454 Casull is one cartridge that Buffalo Bore Ammunition does not load to its full pressure limit. When loaded to its full pressure potential the .454 Casull can become unreliable and unpleasant to shoot. upper-pressure levels, heavy bullets tend to jump crimp - tying up the cylinder. (wouldn't this be great in an emergency) Also, fired brass can stick in the chambers."

[44 AMP]

Have you considered that the reason you cannot find published reloading data reaching 65K psi might be because you cannot safely get there with cannister grade reloading powders???

The speedometer on my Ford Focus goes to 140mph. There is no way I can get the car to go that fast with available stock components, I don't even try...

[ghbucky]

I did some reading about the cartridge due to this post. The practices of the folks developing loads for this some time are a bit hair raising to my more conservative sensibilities.

I'd never heard of triplex loads before, and it isn't something I would ever think about doing. But, I think that is how the original cartridge was driven to those types of pressures.

[Jim Watson]

Secret Sauce Powder strikes again.

I don't know the timeline, when Dick Casul was doing "triplex" loading, was H110 available? Because H110 and W296 have made that sort of kluge unnecessary.
Also AA#9 and likely N110.

[ghbucky]

I'm not sure what was used. I never saw a recipe. This may well be urban legend.

[Jim Watson]

No, I was reading the gunzines back then, he really did use duplex and triplex charges of Hercules powders.

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

No, I was reading the gunzines back then, he really did use duplex and triplex charges of Hercules powders.

And IIRC blew up cylinders and top-straps more than once.

Pretty sure they weren't sharing those duplex and triplex because someone would try them and blow up more guns (and fingers and ...)

[Jim Watson]

Well, sure. I found a cite of Ackley data
https://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com...x-loads.30315/

[Dano4734]

Buffalo bore or double tap makes loads that will tear your hand off. I only use them for bear protection in AK as they are not fun to shoot in my 454

[olduser]

I think you are pushing toward trouble. With no way to actually measure the pressures you will be heading toward a serious accident and when it happens you will not know exactly what went wrong.
Remember Elmer blew up a Colt and was lucky it did not hurt him.

[44 AMP]

Elmer blew up a couple Colts, that he mentions specifically and another one he mentions in passing. Possibly as many as five, but more likely 3. One was a .45 Colt, and he cracked the cylinder on a .38-40, the others he doesn't say, but it was the failures that lead him to using the .44 Special because of the guns available at the time, it had more steel in the cylinder.

Personally I believe that had a gun like the large frame Ruger Super Blackhawk been available at the time, Elmer would have made a .45 Magnum, not a .44.

Buffalo bore or double tap makes loads that will tear your hand off. I only use them for bear protection in AK as they are not fun to shoot in my 454

I do question the sense of a "rip your hand off" load for bear defense. I mean, if that's what you're going to choose, why bother with a repeater?

.44 Mag has put down some very big bears, including a 12'6" polar bear, so clearly it can work. Why go so far beyond that as to effectively eliminate the likelihood of more than one aimed shot??

Just as you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight, you can't miss with enough power to stop a charging beast.

If you've got confidence in it, use it. That can count for more than paper statistics.

[ghbucky]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Well, sure. I found a cite of Ackley data
https://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com...x-loads.30315/

That was the one I found, and hence my comment on urban legend because I couldn't find any verified citations. I've never heard of the Ackley handbook referenced in that post.

Me not having heard of it doesn't mean anything. I don't tend to wander far from current manufacturer load data.

[Jim Watson]

Some of the loads in the Ackley books are downright spooky.
I considered mine to be historical references, not working data.

[ghbucky]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Some of the loads in the Ackley books are downright spooky.
I considered mine to be historical references, not working data.

Now you've done it!

Is this the book?
https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Shoo...=UTF8&qid=&sr=

[Jim Watson]

I had the two volume set
https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Shoo...s=books&sr=1-3

But Amazon doesn’t have any.

[reddog81]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Casull can become unreliable and unpleasant to shoot. upper-pressure levels, heavy bullets tend to jump crimp - tying up the cylinder. (wouldn't this be great in an emergency) Also, fired brass can stick in the chambers." [/I]

I knew I had seen that warning somewhere....

I'm pretty sure I remember reading about an interview with someone at S&W saying basically the same thing - the gun can handle 65,000 PSI but you start running into issues like hard to eject brass. This causes people to complain or they want to send the gun back to be "fixed" even though there is nothing wrong with the gun.

[ghbucky]

on that triplex stuff: I keep wondering how that would work.

It seems the idea was to have different powders igniting at different times for sort of a 'staged' burn, but how would that be controlled?

Unless they did some sort of compressed load with a filler to try to tamp everything into a tight pack, I don't see how the powder just wouldn't mix together and become some sort of hybrid insanity charge.

[44 AMP]

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.


From what I remember of articles back in the day, the way it was done with by charging the case with a few grains, 2-4 or so of Bullseye, then something like 8-10gr of Unique added on top of that, and then the rest of the case was filled with 2400.

Have no idea now, if it was compressed or not, but I feel pretty certain the case was full enough that the powders didn't mix together to any significant amount.

Never tried it, never even thought about trying it, it was barking scary back then, and its still scary today, so, thanks, but no...

The way I see it, if I need more than I can get from a heavy loaded .44Mag or .45 Colt, I probably need a rifle. OR a .45-70 Contender, which, I have...

[1972RedNeck]

Found a set of load data from Freedom Arms for the 454. 300 grain bullet over a max load of H110 pushing almost 1800 FPS from a 7 1/2" barrel - nice and toasty.

As for the "hand ripping off" loads, I picked up a couple boxes of HSM 325 grain loads that are on the hot side for both my 454 and 460 and they are a blast to shoot. A box of 50 goes WAY too fast for the price of them. I can shoot either my XVR or Super Redhawk one handed with hot loads all day long and enjoy every minute of it. They have a lot of "push", but not the "snap" or "bite" like a 357 LCR with full house 180 grain loads.

[44 AMP]

small handguns with magnum loads are painful to shoot and can, in fact give you nerve damage, if you shoot them "too much".